Unusual Call

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With no outs, and a runner on 2B, batter hits line drive down right field line, which lands foul. The runner rounds third before slowing up. The third base coach says something to her, so she pauses. And then she bends down to adjust her shoe. Then she very casually walks back to 2B. In the meantime, the ball gets returned to the pitcher, in the circle. The runner gets back to the base, then steps off the back of the base to again adjust her show. The umpire calls her out for being off the base (look-back). The head coach comes out to argue, but the umpire cuts him off and declares that the ball is in the circle, so she is out. Due to a previous run in with this same umpire, the Head Coach does not push it, and accepts the out.

The ball was in the circle. No doubt about that. But a quick rule book check shows that the look-back rule is not in effect unless the ball is live. Sentence number one of the rule clearly states this. The pitcher was not on the rubber, and was nowhere near ready to pitch. So the home plate ump could not have given the pitcher the "play ball" signal, to make play live again.

So I believe this was a botched call. Maybe the ump is inexperienced, and does not understand that the ball must be live? But it sure felt personal. The runner was being casual and maybe she rubbed the ump the wrong way. And with the prior run in with that team, it just makes it feel like the ump was sending a message. But still, a look-back violation, after a foul ball, while the girl is adjusting her shoe, c?mon?..

 

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There's an unwritten rule in all sports that should be employed a lot more: Use common sense.

 

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The rule before LBR, 8-7-S (Fastpitch), says the runner is out when they fail to keep contact with the base to which they are entitled until the ball leaves the pitcher's hand. She would have been okay if she stopped again before stepping on the base. Once on, she needed to ask for time before stepping off the base.

 

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I think the call was petty.

 

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My question to the umpire would be, "After the foul ball, at what point exactly did you make the ball live again?". Because, if the ball wasn't live yet, there couldn't possibly be a rule violation or an out.

If the umpire just doesn't really know how the rule works, then shame on him. If he was trying to "send a mesage"...then double shame on him. Officiating has no place for personal vendettas.

 

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I think the call was petty.

I agree 100%. I would expect a good umpire to raise his hands and call time when he saw the player step off the bag to "adjust her shoe".

 

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Agree TR and TNT ... though I think the ump should also tell her that before she steps off in the future to tie a shoe, that she needs to ask for time out first, so that she does learn something from it. Out of curiosity, what age group was this jd?

 

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Is it remotely possible you missed the umpire declare play ball or his gestures?

It seems smart to always ask for time and make sure it is acknowledged. If the player knows that live play has not begun would an umpire even acknowledge a request for time?

 

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The rule before LBR, 8-7-S (Fastpitch), says the runner is out when they fail to keep contact with the base to which they are entitled until the ball leaves the pitcher's hand. She would have been okay if she stopped again before stepping on the base. Once on, she needed to ask for time before stepping off the base.

I had not considered it from this rule's point of view. But I still don't think this applies here. And you can't really ask for time when the ball is not live.

Also, it is possible that I missed the home plate umpire 'declare play ball', as was suggested. But I am certain the pitcher was not on the rubber, so it should not have been signaled, if it was.

Thanks all.

 

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at least your umpire didn't tell you that the "next inning" (we were going into the 6th or 7th) starts with the first pitch after the put-out occurred and since we had 2 seconds left on the timer the game was over... and he was adamant about it. UIC hooked us up ;-)

 

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Then the pitcher has to have control of the ball too for the look back rule to be in effect. Not tucked under the arm, etc. while adjusting equipment. If Bretman says it comes down to if the ump declared play ball then sounds like you were right on.

 

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An umpire would never make a bad call because of something that happened earlier in a game. That would be unprofessional.

 

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I was under the impression that the ball become live when the pitcher took the mound and receives the sign after a foul; anything that happens between the ball be declared foul and getting back into the pitchers hand as she is standing on the rubber is irrelevant and has no effect on the game. The umpire by declaring 'play ball' is simply giving her permission to pitch.

This call was petty and way 'off-base'.

 

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What's supposed to happen is for the plate umpire to signal and indicate "Play" following EVERY case where the ball has become dead. Anything that happens up to until that point is irrelevant.

(Well, that might be over-simplifying things a bit. Basically, what we mean is that runners cannot advance, they cannot be put out, no pitch can be thrown, etc. There are rule violations that can happen during a dead ball, but not really any that apply to this discussion. They could happen, so saying that nothing is relevant until the ball is live again isn't totally accurate.)

Just the fact that the pitcher happens to have the ball and has stepped on the rubber does not automatically make the ball live. It's not supposed to be live again until the plate umpire points and signals "Play".

The problem you can have is that many (I might even go so far as to say "most") umpires are *** about properly using the "Play" mechanic. Absent that signal, you're kind of forced to make a "default" assumption that the ball is live again once the pitcher is in position to pitch and the batter is in position to receive the pitch. And that will probably work out okay 99.9% of the time. It's when something odd or out of the ordinary happens that not using this signal can bite you!

So, after a foul ball, suppose that...a runner steps off a base before the pitch...the pitcher raises the ball overhead as if she's going to make a play on a runner....a pitch is thrown before the batter is fully ready...

Any one of those actions could result in an out or penalty if it happens during a LIVE ball. Yet any of these could be "nothing" if it happened during a dead ball. If the umpire has been consistently using the "Play" signal throughout the game, then there probably isn't going to be any question about whether or not the ball was live or dead.

But if he hasn't been signalling "Play"....now you just kind of have to guess. That is much more likely to lead to confusion or an argument. If you can head off potential confusion with a simple mechanic...use the simple mechanic!