Would you lie?

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This happened at a baseball game my son was in last night. Just wondered what some parents and coaches would want the girls to do in a situation like this.

First of all there was only 1 umpire behind the plate. My son was playing second base with a runner on first. first base runner stole second but the throw to my son was very low he caught the ball ahead of the runner but the runner slid and made the bag before my son could tag him. Because the ball got there a hair before the runner, my son made the catch behind the runner. Ump could not see that he didn't make the tag and called the runner out. Of course a chorus of prostests went up form the opposing team. The umpire went out to 2nd base and asked my son to tell the truth "did you make the tag"?

My questions is what would you have told your 2nd base player to do? Would you expect them to lie, would you want them to tell the truth, would you care either way?? Just curious as to other coaches opinions.

I'll let you know what happened after I hear some responses.

 

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I would want the child to tell the truth. In my dd's volleyball game last night, a girl on the other team touched a ball before it landed out of bounds. The referee did not see it, but when our team protested he asked the girl and she told the truth. Very classy (and in 8th grade).

 

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I can't believe there's any question. If an ump misses something, the kids don't have to go over to the ump and say, "Hey, I missed that tag," but asked point blank - what a precedent you set by telling a child to lie.

 

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Truth, but that is beside the point. The umpire took the pressure off himself and put it right on your son. This is poor umpiring at its best.
I have had this same thing happen to me when I have umpired, and you sometimes get it right and you sometimes get it wrong, but I have always stood by my call. He should have been sure of his call from the beginning, and stuck with it. If your not 100% sure of the tag, then you have a safe call, you can't just assume.

 

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Does anyone else have a problem with the umpire asking the kid that question? I do. The kid is there to play the game and the umpire is to call what he sees and that's all. He had no business asking that kid anything.

 

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Never should have asked the question >. The umpire is there to umpire the kid is there play. I am sure Bretman will weigh in on this and I hope he thinks of this as poorly as I do. With all that being said I believe you tell the truth.....If you are 100% sure.

 

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Sounds like the ump had rabbit ears and wanted to take the pressure off himself and put it right on the child. Make the call and stick with it!

 

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I have to tell you I didn't even see it from the point of view of Johnnies and Lady Knights!! I guess you are right.

My son did not lie and I have never been more proud. In the 5th inning my son was the first batter and had just got put in the game and we were down 1 run. He got a base hit and started a rally. Scored the tying run. We scored 5 runs in that inning and were winning 7 to 3. The runner at second base was the tying run for the other team. So, although it was not a hard decision not to lie for him, he knew if they had lost the game he might not ever get to play again!! LOL Fortunately they won 7 to 6.

 

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The answer should be, you called him out, so I guess I did...

 

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Lady Knights and Johnnies are right. I wouldn't want the boy to lie, but once I learned what the umpire asked, I would then ask the umpire to refrain from putting the kids on the spot like that.

Lady Knights is also right - and many, many umpires need to learn this - that if an umpire doesn't literally see the out, then he/she must call safe. If the only thing the umpire sees for certain is the runner on the base, it by definition should be a safe call.

 

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I take it this had to be some fall-ball game or pick-up scrimmage. No "umpire" would ask that. If it was my kid, I hope they would say, "I don't make calls." As a coach, if the umpire turned and said, "Coach, from my angle, in my judgment it looked like the ball beat him there and he made the tag, I have to call what I see." There is no place else you can go with that. You may not like it but it is what it is.

 

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I tell all of my players to tell the truth when asked because I want the girls to know that their integrity counts. Instructing a player to lie in a situation like this sends the wrong message.

Of course an umpire should never put a player in this position to begin with.

 

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The problem you have is what would happen if he really believed he made the tag and told the umpire, "Yeah, I think I tagged him." Then he is labeled a liar and the other team goes nuts and the ump loses all control. Kids should never make calls even if an ump asks them. As a coach I wouldn't let them make a call.

I don't want them to lie, it's just not their call.

 

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Ringer, this was a fall league. The players on my sons team range in age from 13 to 18. It's little B. Whatever that means. I follow fastpitch more than baseball.

Maybe if he was older (he's 15) he could have thought fast enough to say some of the things on here. But he is just a kid. And fortunately for me he is a very honest kid. He said that he just couldn't lie to him.

 

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I agree you don't want them to lie. It is a shame the ump put the kid in this situation. The general idea of sportsmanship should always be taught. Even Ringer and Statman show sportsmanship in their jousting back and forth. ;D ;D

 

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Good for your son bad for the ump > I was coaching 3rd base last summer in a tournament, my leadoff lefty was up with 2 strikes she attempted to slap and pulled back. The umpire ask me if I thought she went around I told him he gets paid for that decision and make a call. He called her out and that was the right call. It amazes me that an ump would even think about asking a player of coach on a decision like that.

 

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Asking a player to make a call for you is a big "no-no". It undermines the umpire's credibility, makes him look uncertain of his calls and will almost always lead to to problems.

Some of the potential pitfalls: The player might be unsure whether the tag was applied or not; The answer you get might be influenced by peer pressure- the player not wanting to letdown his teammates or coach; Reversing a call usually leads to an argument from the other team.

And one more biggie- what happens if the other team has a close call and wants you to "ask the player" what he had? You did it for one team and they will want you to do it for them.

Too much downside for this to be a common practice. My advice is to call what you can see and stick with that call.

There's a reason most games have more than one umpire and this play is a perfect example. On a 60-foot diamond the plate umpire is about 85 feet away from this play, with little hope of gaining either distance or angle. This was a baseball game and if it was on a 90-foot diamond the umpire is 125 feet away.

Calling what you can see and sticking with the call is the "fairest" option leading to the fewest problems.

 

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I agree, the kid should not lie if asked outright. I also agree, he should never have been asked in the first place, if the ump didn't see it then shame on him player is safe.
I also would have to say if an ump makes a bad call, the kid shouldn't correct him. Case in point, my daughter was stealing 2nd base, ump called her safe. She looked at me and shrugged her shoulders. When she came back in, she told me she was "so out". But not her call to make, that is the umps job.
But I would never condone my daughter lying to someone.
Kudos for your son's honesty.

 

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My daughter was put in this position in jr. high ball. There was a play at home and the ump called the runner out then asked my daughter if she tagged the runner. My daughter told her no that she missed her. The coaches yelled at her when she got into the dugout after the inning for telling the truth. So much for teaching our kids integrity.

 

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Come to think about it I can remember twice (once in Toledo and once in Zanesville) where there was a situation in which both umps didnt see the call and they asked the coaches from the other team what they saw. Needless to say the calls went against us, ?>

Just blew my mind to see that happen,LOL!