Bat rolling, and shaving. Really??? (The Softball Zone Radio Show Thread of the Week)

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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

Thank you drew. Yes when asked by other teams about players leaving I should have just kept my mouth shut. To the bat rolling my daughter is a pitcher throwing 45mph we face these so called teams with hot bats. Why would I risk my own daughters safety .

 

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I do not have a dog in the fight with the player or team you are talking about now, but I can tell you this. I have been up against Storm quite a few times, and now you are talking about a player who not only you say is one of the better players in the state, many people believe she is. That kid is a very talented ball player , who could probably hit a darn hard shot with a wooden bat. With her talent she would'nt need to cheat, she has the ability. just my two cents worth.

 

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yes it is extreme but it didn't take long to get out of control in the slowpitch game so why not nip it in the rear now instead of waiting until it is bad like the slowpitch game did.

In our area fastpitch numbers are declining. We struggle to fill our rec leagues and we went from 65 to 33 players trying out at the HS with no freshman team. If the travel game gets to the point where players have to use tournament bats, and teams required to supply balls like mens SP, the travel game will take a numbers hit just like SP.

This is a HUGE issue that not only impacts safety but can alter the way the game is played, cost to play the game and the amount of players playing the game.
Know where you want to go. Do not dream about it plan for it.Set goals and Make It Happen!

 

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Who is the OP? Everyone else who has had their name drug through the mud is on here.

 

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I'm having some trouble with perspective on this whole thread. Maybe someone has some answers...... And just for the record, I hate the thought of cheating in general and especially in adult organized games for kids.

1) Just how much hotter do these bats get when altered? Instead of 98 MPH exit speed, what number are we talking about? 100 103 106? How much more dangerous is it statistically? At some point, someone decided 98 was OK. Why not 94 or 88?

2) It's been mentioned several times umpires need to check the equipment. And just what are we checking for? What visual clue is there that the bat has been rolled? How can I tell if it's been shaved? From what I have read on this thread and a brief internet search the answer is you can't in most cases. I don't know any bat experts and don't have a tuned ear to know what an altered bat sounds like. Does that mean the umpire is now responsible if they miss a well camouflaged altered bat? What about the bat that gets snuck in the game that was in the bag and the ump never saw?

3) Want to test all bats and keep them for the duration of the tournament? Just how is that going to work logistically? Who is going to babysit the can of bats between games? What happens when a $300 bat inevitably goes missing? What happens if a bat gets damaged while impounded? Who is going to haul this official can of bats around to each field where they are needed? How are you going to guarantee the bat babysitters aren't putting extra bats in the bat can?

4) Player safety. Everyone seems OK with kids using a bat that hits the ball at a theoretical 98 MPH, but suddenly 100 is not OK? What is the difference and where is the "safe" line? This game can be dangerous.

5) Isn't the # 3 hitter who hit a growth spurt early a lot more dangerous than the #9 hitter who is still a wee kid regardless of the bat being used? Again, this game can be dangerous.

6) Isn't the kid who has put hours and hours into improving her swing a lot more dangerous than the kid who didn't? Huh.... this game can be dangerous.

7) Speaking of danger,the ride to the park is likely the most dangerous thing to happen to the kids at a tournament. Have you done everything you can to protect yourself and your family from that very real threat? Racing style helmet, 5 pt seat belt and safety seat system, HANS device, roll cage, fuel cell, and fire suppression system? I didn't think so, you are perfectly willing to take your chances. How can we put a price on safety? We do it every day with a vast array of different products. Especially the most dangerous products, cars. Don't even get me started on cell phones and cars.......

7) Is it really necessary for all these veiled or not so veiled threats of bodily harm? I just marvel at how often it seems to come up in this forum about little girls softball.

I'm not even sure you can quantify how much extra danger it may add. Certainly far less than many other factors involved. Call me naive, but I just don't see this as being a big issue in this sport. I see no need for wholesale changes just to catch the tiny percentage that may be doing it. Let things work out through established channels, let there be an investigation if it's warranted, and let's stick with innocent until proven guilty. The world has plenty of scumbags, sometimes you just have to live with them until (and IF) they get weeded out of the population.

 

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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

I'm having some trouble with perspective on this whole thread. Maybe someone has some answers...... And just for the record, I hate the thought of cheating in general and especially in adult organized games for kids.

1) Just how much hotter do these bats get when altered? Instead of 98 MPH exit speed, what number are we talking about? 100 103 106? How much more dangerous is it statistically? At some point, someone decided 98 was OK. Why not 94 or 88?

2) It's been mentioned several times umpires need to check the equipment. And just what are we checking for? What visual clue is there that the bat has been rolled? How can I tell if it's been shaved? From what I have read on this thread and a brief internet search the answer is you can't in most cases. I don't know any bat experts and don't have a tuned ear to know what an altered bat sounds like. Does that mean the umpire is now responsible if they miss a well camouflaged altered bat? What about the bat that gets snuck in the game that was in the bag and the ump never saw?

3) Want to test all bats and keep them for the duration of the tournament? Just how is that going to work logistically? Who is going to babysit the can of bats between games? What happens when a $300 bat inevitably goes missing? What happens if a bat gets damaged while impounded? Who is going to haul this official can of bats around to each field where they are needed? How are you going to guarantee the bat babysitters aren't putting extra bats in the bat can?

4) Player safety. Everyone seems OK with kids using a bat that hits the ball at a theoretical 98 MPH, but suddenly 100 is not OK? What is the difference and where is the "safe" line? This game can be dangerous.

5) Isn't the # 3 hitter who hit a growth spurt early a lot more dangerous than the #9 hitter who is still a wee kid regardless of the bat being used? Again, this game can be dangerous.

6) Isn't the kid who has put hours and hours into improving her swing a lot more dangerous than the kid who didn't? Huh.... this game can be dangerous.

7) Speaking of danger,the ride to the park is likely the most dangerous thing to happen to the kids at a tournament. Have you done everything you can to protect yourself and your family from that very real threat? Racing style helmet, 5 pt seat belt and safety seat system, HANS device, roll cage, fuel cell, and fire suppression system? I didn't think so, you are perfectly willing to take your chances. How can we put a price on safety? We do it every day with a vast array of different products. Especially the most dangerous products, cars. Don't even get me started on cell phones and cars.......

7) Is it really necessary for all these veiled or not so veiled threats of bodily harm? I just marvel at how often it seems to come up in this forum about little girls softball.

I'm not even sure you can quantify how much extra danger it may add.
Certainly far less than many other factors involved. Call me naive, but I just don't see this as being a big issue in this sport. I see no need for wholesale changes just to catch the tiny percentage that may be doing it. Let things work out through established channels, let there be an investigation if it's warranted, and let's stick with innocent until proven guilty. The world has plenty of scumbags, sometimes you just have to live with them until (and IF) they get weeded out of the population.

You will not get an argument that sport in general has its risk that the players and parents accept...

However; Its not just about ball exit speeds, Bats breaking or end caps coming off are other dangers when the bats are altered.
Can it happen naturally, yes however; the likely hood increases when bats are rolled, shaved etc.
#3 It is done in cincinnati during the Cincy Metro SP. This used to be one of the largest tournaments in the country played at 8 local parks. they do not have quite as many as the old days but still quite a few teams and the bats are supplied.

To "quantify" the dangers look no further that the steep rise in injuries in Boys Baseball and all levels of slow pitch....
Yes, the ladies are getting bigger/ srtronger and faster with hot bats that are not altered.
That is also why we have several divisions of play.
Now I will say, TDs do not do a good job of putting on A and B events and this is another thread by its self.


I posted from the MIKEN website what they feel about rolling bats. You can go to the other manufactures sites and find the same verbage...
There is a reason why the sanctioning bodies have rules against altering bats...They have collected the data, been involved in legal issues and understand these issues can and will change how the game is played....

 

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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

Thank you drew. Yes when asked by other teams about players leaving I should have just kept my mouth shut. To the bat rolling my daughter is a pitcher throwing 45mph we face these so called teams with hot bats. Why would I risk my own daughters safety .

Butch maybe you should not have used your fingers to produce emails and signed it Butch either. If you want a copy of the email I am sure that parent can produce it.

A simple yes or no question: Did you talk to a select group of parents about having the bats fixed?

Did you offer to send the bats up North to have it done?

Howard

 

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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

I believe most of the blame lies with the umpires and tournament directors. I was at a tournament earlier this afternoon and the umpires did not check one piece of equipment.
If they would check, it would make this practically a none issue.

Disagree - blame lies with the people that roll and shave and the parents that allow it.

 

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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

Oh the intrigue of 12u.......

A former College player and current HS coach that now coaches our 14/16 team said the noise is louder from the bleachers of the younger teams.......smart lady.

 

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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

I'm not even sure you can quantify how much extra danger it may add. Certainly far less than many other factors involved. Call me naive, but I just don't see this as being a big issue in this sport. I see no need for wholesale changes just to catch the tiny percentage that may be doing it. Let things work out through established channels, let there be an investigation if it's warranted, and let's stick with innocent until proven guilty. The world has plenty of scumbags, sometimes you just have to live with them until (and IF) they get weeded out of the population.

I totally understand the angle you took with your post. Without spending a ton of time here is a different perspective.

* people much smarter than any of us (maybe) engineered the exit speeds and testing protocols. I have to leave the expertise up to them and trust that they know what they are doing. One thing I do know is the increase exit speed of a shaved bat GREATLY reduces the reaction time that a player could expect from a normally broken in bat.
* The assumption at a rolled bat ONLY breaks a bat in to its normal level is misguided. If you check at SP bat that is legal but broken in, then check a bat that has been rolled both ways the veins and cracks are very different - thus increasing the trampoline effect to a great degree.
* please excuse this statement. I am just commenting on your statement, not you personally - but you are being naive if you don't see this as a problem.

* and most importantly the point you missed in all this - and it seems that everyone is missing - IT IS NOT LEGAL TO PLAY WITH AN ALTERED BAT.

All these people seem to know people that roll bats, even a fastpitch business admits to it, yet no one knows anyone that uses these services or bats. Come on people. Naming names is a good thing - if there is proof. Without it the info is worthless.

Any parent that allows their daughter to play on a team, or for an organization that knowingly breaks these kind of rules does deserve to be included in mud raking. If I was a TD I would be very nervous about allowing these type of teams in an event I was hosting.

 

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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

Bottom line is...it is cheating and it is a shame that there are parents and coaches out there that are willing to do this for 12u fastpitch players. While I find a bit of amusement in the fact that the thread was started about one particular team and another coach from another organization got caught for allegedly altering bats, or offering the service of rolling bats for slow pitch, (by the way...the Miken Rain is a fastpitch bat) I feel bad for those girls on those teams because every good hit will now be scrutinized whether right or wrong.
Finally, as hitter alluded to...the technology that we possess today is amazing and all those e-mails and texts that we send out everyday do not just go away. I tell my students every year that once you hit send...it is out there.

 

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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

I thought this thread was dying down several pages ago, but it's certainly taken on new life. I'm now on my fourth tub of pop corn...

 

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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

I totally understand the angle you took with your post. Without spending a ton of time here is a different perspective.

* people much smarter than any of us (maybe) engineered the exit speeds and testing protocols. I have to leave the expertise up to them and trust that they know what they are doing. One thing I do know is the increase exit speed of a shaved bat GREATLY reduces the reaction time that a player could expect from a normally broken in bat.
* The assumption at a rolled bat ONLY breaks a bat in to its normal level is misguided. If you check at SP bat that is legal but broken in, then check a bat that has been rolled both ways the veins and cracks are very different - thus increasing the trampoline effect to a great degree.
* please excuse this statement. I am just commenting on your statement, not you personally - but you are being naive if you don't see this as a problem.

* and most importantly the point you missed in all this - and it seems that everyone is missing - IT IS NOT LEGAL TO PLAY WITH AN ALTERED BAT.

All these people seem to know people that roll bats, even a fastpitch business admits to it, yet no one knows anyone that uses these services or bats. Come on people. Naming names is a good thing - if there is proof. Without it the info is worthless.

Any parent that allows their daughter to play on a team, or for an organization that knowingly breaks these kind of rules does deserve to be included in mud raking. If I was a TD I would be very nervous about allowing these type of teams in an event I was hosting.

I DO realize it's not legal and condemned it as cheating in my opening paragraph.

Yes, the higher exit speeds equate to less reaction time, but that is in the hundredths of a second compared to the same hit with a non-altered bat. That might be the difference in getting a glove up or getting hit in some cases. In other cases it won't mean a thing. My kid pitched in college, I get the concept of missiles shot at MY kid.

I do see it as a problem, but how prevalent is the problem? Is it 1% of the players? I suspect less, much less than 1% are using an altered bat. But nobody really knows. I haven't heard of it being proven, but I am hardly in the know of the whole softball world. If it has been proven anywhere, nobody piped up with that info in any of the first 20 some pages here.

I need proof, not some he said she said which is all we have here. Blacklisting a team because of rumors is not appropriate. If someone has some info, certainly they should feel obligated to share that with the sanctioning bodies and let them investigate it from there.

I say all this because I don't want to see a "solution" that is far worse than the problem was to begin with.

 

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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

For those that are trying to throw Hope (AKA "Lefty Pitcher) under the bus. . . . I have coached against her for the last 3 years & she has some of the quickest hands I have ever seen for a 12u player. I guarantee you that she puts in countless hours to work on her game, which is why she has such great bat speed & is one of the top players around Ohio. I suggest to those that are calling out people that you make sure you have proof (as others have stated) before making accusations.

 

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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

I DO realize it's not legal and condemned it as cheating in my opening paragraph.

Yes, the higher exit speeds equate to less reaction time, but that is in the hundredths of a second compared to the same hit with a non-altered bat. That might be the difference in getting a glove up or getting hit in some cases. In other cases it won't mean a thing. My kid pitched in college, I get the concept of missiles shot at MY kid.

I do see it as a problem, but how prevalent is the problem? Is it 1% of the players? I suspect less, much less than 1% are using an altered bat. But nobody really knows. I haven't heard of it being proven, but I am hardly in the know of the whole softball world. If it has been proven anywhere, nobody piped up with that info in any of the first 20 some pages here.

I need proof, not some he said she said which is all we have here. Blacklisting a team because of rumors is not appropriate. If someone has some info, certainly they should feel obligated to share that with the sanctioning bodies and let them investigate it from there.

I say all this because I don't want to see a "solution" that is far worse than the problem was to begin with.

As has been stated many times on many pages - unless there are facts then no player, team or coach should be blackballed. Some people on here believe they have facts but are unwilling to post them - PM's to others on here can attest to that. But when one business admits to doing it, it does raise questions and in fact may lead to those players and teams being blackballed. Just human nature.

I am sorry that you don't think the reduction in reaction time is significant enough to be concerned in general. Obviously there are governing bodies that believe the reaction time is a big enough safety concern that they legislate to protect it. My money and trust is on them - not someone that believes it is prevalent enough to care. I am sure that at some point in the SP world the problem effected 1%. Doing nothing cost that sport. How long should we wait - until the % raises above 10%? Heck this thread ALONE has brought concerns about two different areas of the state. Should we wait until a shaved bat snaps in half and the exposed broke barrel cuts the catchers arm. Should we wait until a pitcher loses her life because a rolled bat cut 1% of the reaction time off and the ball killed her.

Please tell us all what solution would work for you that would fit into your solution/problem matrix. My guess is your one of the wait and see guys. Sad.

 

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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

Oh the intrigue of 12u.......

Ah yes. Where parents and coaches think every game is game 7 of the World series and that college coaches are going to show-up and watch their team if they win a lot of games.

 

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Ah yes. Where parents and coaches think every game is game 7 of the World series and that college coaches are going to show-up and watch their team if they win a lot of games.

What you say WVA - time to put a cork in this one????

 

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Ah yes. Where parents and coaches think every game is game 7 of the World series and that college coaches are going to show-up and watch their team if they win a lot of games.

99% of 12u in one short sentence. Nice job Bill.

 

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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

Some people are acting foolish... I know for a fact storm had a kid on the team last year who's parents had a bat roller.... And also Longball do you not work for a sporting good company that also rolls bats! Let's all just be real here and stop acting self righteous!!!!

 

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Interesting that this person had a different bat today from last weekend!!!