Bat rolling, and shaving. Really??? (The Softball Zone Radio Show Thread of the Week)

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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

Wow...holy Lord...I turn away from OFC for a minute and come back to an explosive post. Seems like the OP touched on a hot subject here.
Ok...let me be the person to bring up a controversial (and probably unpopular) viewpoint, because I think this fact might not be known by many people...did you know that when new bats are sent to be tested for the ASA Stamp, that they are rolled prior to testing? This is a fact. Why does the ASA do this? They know that many (not all) of today's high performance composite bats get hotter as they break in. This is something that was learned about 7-9 years ago when the first Miken Freak came out. Back then, bats were tested fresh out of the wrapper and approved. Once those new composite bats broke in they became hotter, thus dangerous. That is why accelerated break-in techniques were banned, because they needed to act immediately. What has happened since this is that the bat manufacturers have responded by actually going the opposite way, and making bats that are dead out of the wrapper, but once they are fully broken in...will just barely pass the 98 MPH batted ball speed test. People think that today's bats are hot out of the wrapper can only be talking about the Xeno & LXT. Those are the only new bats that don't have a break-in period. They hit 98 MPH right out of the wrapper. What do you think happens if you roll a Xeno? Absolutely nothing. It doesn't get any "hotter".
My bet is that bat rolling will actually be allowed at some point soon, but only for bats made after a certain date, like 2009 or so, which is about the time the bat companies started to respond with dead bats.

I ask this question....what is the difference between a brand new composite bat that gets rolled and one that you take to the park and hit balls for 500-700 hits? The answer...they will break in just about the same. And the ASA knows that, which is why they have bats rolled prior to being tested for stamp approval. I'm not suggesting that rolling should be done in youth sports...just stating the facts.

Shaving..TOTALLY different story. You are physically altering the bat and completely altering its structure, wall thickness, etc. People who use shaved bats are flat out CHEATING. People who use
rolled bats are merely accelerating the break-in period of composite bats. There isn't a CF6, Stealth, White-Out in bat bags from last year that isn't hotter than blazes right now. How hot? It is STILL < 98 MPH batted ball speed.
The ASA Stamp says so.
 
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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

From CZs post... "I ask this question....what is the difference between a brand new composite bat that gets rolled and one that you take to the park and hit balls for 500-700 hits? The answer...they will break in just about the same. And the ASA knows that, which is why they have bats rolled prior to being tested for stamp approval. I'm not suggesting that rolling should be done in youth sports...just stating the facts."

How they are broken in does make a difference...Not all bats have a number ring and most do not understand why the ring is is stamped around the top or the end cap of the bat.
Thus, the bat develops "HOT Spots"...When the player starts to use another striking area they think their bat went dead and go out to get a new one...
CF bats do not generally go dead. Most get hotter with use and when they reach their peek the outer wall will rupture or the handle will over flex and break...Rolling the bat shortens the life cycle of the bat by speeding up the break in proccess. People that roll bats do not know what kinds of force they are applying to the barrell. Could be light, could be just right, could be too much...When the bats fail ans splinter apart that is another safety issue.

I do agree with CZ the Miken Freak98 was the best legal bat ever produced along with the Demarini Double Wall.
I remember seeing a lot of players using FREAKS when fastpitch softball was an olympic sport in the early 2000s.
 
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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

I don't care what ASA does with a bat, if someone is altering bats then they do not need to be involved in youth sports. period.
 
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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

From CZs post... "I ask this question....what is the difference between a brand new composite bat that gets rolled and one that you take to the park and hit balls for 500-700 hits? The answer...they will break in just about the same. And the ASA knows that, which is why they have bats rolled prior to being tested for stamp approval. I'm not suggesting that rolling should be done in youth sports...just stating the facts."

How they are broken in does make a difference...Not all bats have a number ring and most do not understand why the ring is is stamped around the top or the end cap.
Thus, the bat develops "HOT Spots"...When the player starts to use another striking area they think their bat went dead and go out to get a new one...
CF bats do not generally go dead. Most get hotter with use and when they reach their peek the outer wall will rupture or the handle will over flex and break...Rolling the bat shortens the life cycle of the bat by speeding up the break in proccess. When the bats fail that is another safety issue.

I do agree with CZ the Miken Freak98 was the best legal bat ever produced. I remember seeing a lot of players using them when fastpitch softball was an olympic sport.
Incidentally, the Freak 98 was probably the most altered bat in the history of the world. In slow pitch it was junk, so the only reason an experienced player would use it, was because apparently it was easier to remove and replace the end cap without detection. It used to crack me up how entire teams would just pass it down the lineup.
 
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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

I'm almost sure "That this Thread" will end up being The Softball Zone Radio Show Thread of the week. Over 100 likes 84 reply in just 3 days.
 
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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

From CZs post... "I ask this question....what is the difference between a brand new composite bat that gets rolled and one that you take to the park and hit balls for 500-700 hits? The answer...they will break in just about the same. And the ASA knows that, which is why they have bats rolled prior to being tested for stamp approval. I'm not suggesting that rolling should be done in youth sports...just stating the facts."

How they are broken in does make a difference...Not all bats have a number ring and most do not understand why the ring is is stamped around the top or the end cap.
Thus, the bat develops "HOT Spots"...When the player starts to use another striking area they think their bat went dead and go out to get a new one...
CF bats do not generally go dead. Most get hotter with use and when they reach their peek the outer wall will rupture or the handle will over flex and break...Rolling the bat shortens the life cycle of the bat by speeding up the break in proccess. When the bats fail that is another safety issue.

I do agree with CZ the Miken Freak98 was the best legal bat ever produced. I remember seeing a lot of players using them when fastpitch softball was an olympic sport.

The difference is one is legal and rolling is not. PERIOD!

When they do see that rolling is not giving them the pop they want they turn to shaving. If you think this guy is not cheating then you should be banned with him!

I asked you this in practice during front toss do the girls use the "cheater" bats? If so does the coach pitch behind a screen?
 
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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

I know in men's slow pitch if you injure someone with a hit the bat is automatically taken and sent out for inspection. If it is found the bat is tapered with you can be prosecuted and likely banned.

I am not sure bat rolling is included but I know shaving is a no no.

But honestly why the effort? Especially at 12U?

As a side note. My wife caught a team switching out balls and using a dead ball when we hit. What kind of human does this at 12U? It was a team from Indiana so do not even bother asking. Cheating in youth sports reveals a serious character flaw.
 
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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

Careful with the pointed statements.
I already said I am not suggesting it should be done. I'm not condoning it.
I felt people should know facts about the testing process and bats because most have no clue. I didn't know that there was a predictable, logical progression from using a rolled bat to shaving. Without being mean or sarcastic I will
merely say that statement is not based upon fact-rather it's a guess. You are presuming they will use a shaved bat once they aren't satisfied with the rolled bat.
At some point they might want to remember that it isn't all up to the equipment....swing the bat properly and all will be well.
 
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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

Incidentally, the Freak 98 was probably the most altered bat in the history of the world.

It was also the bat that the painted Ultra's were converted to with the decal kits.

On the bright side, there are a handful of the newer bats that can not be rolled. Not sure if the manufacturers have done it on purpose or not, but when rolled, the paint starts to flake off (info from someone who tests out things like that)
 
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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

It was also the bat that the painted Ultra's were converted to with the decal kits.
Yes, but those people were simply laughed off of the field. The difference between an original Ultra and a Freak 98 is only about 60 feet or so...
 
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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

Yes, but those people were simply laughed off of the field. The difference between an original Ultra and a Freak 98 is only about 60 feet or so...

Never saw one laughed off the field, Chased was more like it :)
 
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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

You know what people? I re-read read my post and it sure sounds like I am a proponent of rolling bats in youth sports. Let me make it PERFECTLY clear that I am adamantly against it.
Don't condone it.
i just like to get on the opposite of arguments to see if I can be invited to discuss this topics on the Softball Zone Radio Show next week. :-D

Y'all have a great day!!
 
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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

I saw a guy who tried that with a painted Easton titanium typhoon (twice as hot as a grey Ultra I, never were legal). After he hit it laid on the ground and chimed like a tuning forkn a bugs bunny cartoon, the whole park complex stopped and ran him out.
 
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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

we were a mizuno team and the black techfire was a hot bat but didnt hold up too long!

All associations do roll bat before testing that is correct. Because when the bat "rolled or broken in" exceeds the 98 mph limit it is then considered illegal. This is not going away no association is going to make rolling legal, it s about player safety. You could have a bat thats broken in not rolled and it easily could exceed the limits...and that bat is now illegal period.

Who did you play for coach dennis?? played against some great teams down there.. Jays EMR Perkins roofing Freeze concrete VIP
 
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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

we were a mizuno team and the black techfire was a hot bat but didnt hold up too long!

All associations do roll bat before testing that is correct. Because when the bat "rolled or broken in" exceeds the 98 mph limit it is then considered illegal. This is not going away no association is going to make rolling legal, it s about player safety. You could have a bat thats broken in not rolled and it easily could exceed the limits...and that bat is now illegal period.

Who did you play for coach dennis?? played against some great teams down there.. Jays EMR Perkins roofing Freeze concrete VIP

I played for OKI/EDGROUP/VIPERS/WORTH, (We went from WORTH to Miken in the early 90s) Several of the other Static coaches played for Paradise Sports...
When our team broke up in the mid 90s the players ended up playing for Paradise Sports, UDF and the Backstop...But, I kept the Miken Sponsorship for the fastpitch team.
 
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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

we were a mizuno team and the black techfire was a hot bat but didnt hold up too long!




Jays EMR Perkins roofing Freeze concrete VIP


That was a nice Mizuno!
There is a blast from the past! I was with Ohio Sealants/Easton. The original Synergy was just sick.
 
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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

In the military, we have a saying, "Do something, Lead, follow, or get the He## out of the way!!!"

So, let's lead.

To the Ohio PGF Commissioner, the Ohio ASA Commissioner, the Ohio NSA Commissioner, and the Ohio USSSA Commissioner I ask,

Are you willing to institute a rule, today, that requires that when a player is injured with a batted ball, the bat is confiscated by the Tournament Director and sent to the sanctioning body for inspection and testing?

Tournament Directors, are you willing to institute that rule for your tournament?

We don't have to wait on the associations to implement nation-wide rules, lets get out-front.

Be bold, be aggressive, then beg forgiveness if we have to.

Yes there will be issues to work-out. Like the definition of an injured player, what about a player in the dug-out, and probably about a dozen other issues. But lets have a can-do attitude and make it happen.
 
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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

It does not even have to be a used bat to not pass the compression test I have seen new bats not pass because the bat manufacturers are pushing the limits of exit speed so that their bat is the hottest bat on the market.
How long ago and which bat models? In April 2013, ASA and NCAA started lists of "non-linear" bats that are allowed to pass BCT below the standard 1550 PSI minimum. The first bats were Xeno and LXT. The list keeps growing - ASA Non-Linear Bat Compression Thresholds.
 
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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

On the bright side, there are a handful of the newer bats that can not be rolled. Not sure if the manufacturers have done it on purpose or not, but when rolled, the paint starts to flake off (info from someone who tests out things like that)

Remember the EASTON Clarity series synergy/stealth? It was made with Visual Composite Technology (VCT). A transparent outer glass layer that allows players to see the bat's inner construction.
Located on the barrel of the bat, the clear layer is a window to the bat's inner composite construction, allowing everyone to easily view the physical integrity of the bat...There have been other bats that would change colors when the inner wall would fracture.
While I do not think bat doctoring is as wide spread of an issue in Fastpitch as it is in Baseball or slowpitch it is good to let the masses know these bats are out there as pointing out the adults that are killing the game with additional safety concerns and cost....
 
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Re: Bat rolling, and shaving. Really???

It is a shame that intregrity, respect and honor are values a very small percentage of coaches, parents and players seem to either not possess or leave at home on game day. Winning is great.... Losing not so much! But the thought of anyone's DD having her journey through fastpitch and even life altered temporarily if not permanently because someone thought cheating to win was worth it......... that's just sickening. For the other 99% of coaches, parents and players who do uphold these values.... my hat is off to you.
 
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