Cheating or Not???

Wishuwereme

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Let's take a different approach to the lightning rod topic of bat rolling. Without accusations, name calling, and all the drama from a previous post, let's conduct ourselves as adults. Is bat rolling cheating?
 

Lenski65

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Yes. It is clearly stated in the rules or the clarification of rules of ASA, USSA, NSA, PFG......etc. You may not change the physical structure of the bat. Rolling the bat is changing the physical structure.
 
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CARDS

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We all know it is clearly against the rules but how about you ask the bat manufactures?

My guess is 100% of them say yes it is. And, you will find the bat manufactures "do not" recommend any altering of their equipment from rolling, vicing or shaving…Bottom line..Work harder and be a better hitter...Yes that does require some work but at least it is not cheating...
 

FastBat

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It's cheating, no doubt.

But, isn't it the same as swinging the bat, at the ball, on a tee then rotating it slightly every time? I thought it was basically the same as a broken in bat. So with tee work for a few months it would be the same? But, then no doubt, you didn't cheat with this method.
 

mogsoftball

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It's cheating, no doubt.

But, isn't it the same as swinging the bat, at the ball, on a tee then rotating it slightly every time? I thought it was basically the same as a broken in bat. So with tee work for a few months it would be the same? But, then no doubt, you didn't cheat with this method.

No hitting then rotating will not break a bat in evenly across the entire face of the bat like rolling does. It isn't even close to the same.
 

FastBat

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Why wouldn't bat companies just sell their bats rolled, if it were more advantageous? Or figure a way that rolling wouldn't make a difference? I just don't understand any of it, I'll admit it!

Regardless of answer, rolling is still cheating!
 

Louuuuu

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Why wouldn't bat companies just sell their bats rolled, ... ?

Because then the bat would become "dead" so quickly that people would be complaining about spending $350 on a new bat every three months. There are only "X" number of hits in a bat before it should be tossed in the dumpster at the field.
 

HITTER23

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I think it has more to do with legal issues. the sanctioning bodies instituted their bat limitations pertaining to performance because of mounting injuries, and they didnt want to be liable. Bat manufacturers either adhere to this or their bats are deemed illegal for use, which is death to a model bat. Bat manufacturers would love to make ultra hot "disposable" bats that need replaced every 3-4 months, theyd make tons more money. They do sort of make what youre saying with bats materials that break down quicker out of the wrapper, breaking in quicker. When you hear about a certain model thats hot as hell but has durability issues this is why.
 

Wishuwereme

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Yes. It is clearly stated in the rules or the clarification of rules of ASA, USSA, NSA, PFG......etc. You may not change the physical structure of the bat. Rolling the bat is changing the physical structure.

Once again, I do not condone this activity. Could some please show where bat rolling is included in altered bat rules?
https://www.usssa.com/sports/AlteredBats.htm
 

Comp

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From 2012 USSSA rule book.

4. The bat has been subjected to pressure in a manner that exceeds that of
striking the bat at game speed swing speed against a USSSA approved
ball traveling at game speeds. Such pressure would include, but is not
limited to, compressing the bat, rolling the bat, vicing the bat or hitting the
bat against an object such as a tree or pole. The bat has in any other way
had its on field performance improved by physically changing the bat
(other than by hitting the bat at game condition swing speeds against a
USSSA approved ball traveling at game condition speeds).

ASA it is under rule 3-1-H

And from the NSA rulebook

An altered bat is considered altered when the physical structure of the legal bat has been changed in any way, or when an illegal or non approved bat has been made up in such a way as to appear to be a legal bat. Examples of altering a bat are, but not limited to the following: Painting a bat, replacing the handle rolling, compressing the bat in any way that is not done during the act of batting/hitting a softball or shaving the handle or barrel or the taper changed in any way such as by sandpapering or applying a solvent to the surface such as fingernail polish remover or by any other means, removing or replacing the plug or changed in any way other than factory repairs, had the knob removed/ replaced or changed in any way or had anything removed or added to the inside or outside of the bat other than the legal way to tape the bat the specified and appropriate place as described in the NSA Rule Book.
 

longball00

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Back in the day, guys used to put bats in a turkey fryer full of boiling water. Supposedly, the heat would melt the glue in the fibers that prevented them from breaking down, and the bat would be hotter than before it was done. The things people will do for the longball :confused:

You can tell that the bat manufacturers aren't 100% on board with the rule. Easton tried with the clarity, people stayed away from them for that very reason. It's all about the $$$, that's why the clarity was put to rest.
 
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The real reason the bat verbiage in the sanctioning bodies rule books started was because of one manufacturer, DeMarini. When Ray DeMarini introduced his double wall bat in the mid 90's to the slow-pitch masses, the performance was off the charts compared to other bats at the time (exception of titanium). The various sanctions outlawed titanium and double-wall shelled bats for use and DeMarini decided to take them to court. The courts sided with him because there was no measurable standard to define what performance was "too much". Bat Performance Factor or BPF became the industry standard for a couple of seasons after that with 1.2 becoming the highest allowable number in NSA & USSSA. The measurement was of a trampoline effect of a struck ball off the barrel. The ASA allowed for some reason 1.3 to be the highest standard for their events and some companies like TPS had the Outlaw (1.3 BPF) that was only approved for use in ASA events.

Eventually around early 2000, Miken put out a composite based shell that was quietly being used. Then they released the Ultra and the sanctions reacted by banning them. Miken took many of the original Ultras back and replaced them with Ultra II's, but that bat also was banned shortly after release. The ASA decided at that time to switch to a MPH standard which was 98 MPH. The ASA banned several bats on the market when they made that switch which happened to coincide with their Labor Day Nationals. If any of you have the ASA chart of non-approved equipment, most of the ones on there are from the banning they did around 2002.

What people started to see with the composites was the more broken in they got, the more those fibers "flexed" which increased the trampoline effect and was essentially defeating the initial BPF rating of the bat. Now many of the sanctions are testing bats out of the wrapper, after rolling, and after a predetermined amount of swings or breaking in period. There are also machines that can test compression on the barrel of the bats to determine if the bat has been "shaved" or hollowed out from the inside which is the biggest form of altering in the softball world these days, especially at the adult slow-pitch level. In fact adult slow-pitch is a literal zoo with accusations flying that close to 90% of the more avid, tournament caliber, types of players all have altered or shaved bats. If you hit a ball within 10 feet of the pitcher, it almost always sets off a war of the words with players then trying to retaliate by hitting the ball right at the opposing pitcher in return.

Sorry for the long wordy history lesson but this is one of my sweet spots as a former avid slow-pitch player and director back in the old days when the best team won, not the team with the best equipment.

I think it has more to do with legal issues. the sanctioning bodies instituted their bat limitations pertaining to performance because of mounting injuries, and they didnt want to be liable. Bat manufacturers either adhere to this or their bats are deemed illegal for use, which is death to a model bat. Bat manufacturers would love to make ultra hot "disposable" bats that need replaced every 3-4 months, theyd make tons more money. They do sort of make what youre saying with bats materials that break down quicker out of the wrapper, breaking in quicker. When you hear about a certain model thats hot as hell but has durability issues this is why.
 
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Mike, I wish you had more information about this :) Were you an attorney in the case? Geesh!

Thanks for the info. I think it is pretty unanimous that bat rolling is cheating. I played in the era Mike is speaking of and it wasn't all that uncommon for us to see a team share 1 bat, until they ran out of homeruns and then they put it in a bag. Our attitude was always if winning the ANUSSA Weekend round robin was that important to ya fellas, then go right ahead. But I've witnessed the trampoline effect from corner infield point of view and the ball is shot out of a cannon.
 
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CARDS

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Mike pretty much nailed the in and outs of the workings of CF bats and as he said, this issue has been around for over 20 years mainly in baseball and slowpitch.The CF bats get hotter as they are used until they rupture or break. Over the years I had a lot of ladies say "my bat went dead" then after you show them how to check for hot spots they understand they are just hitting it in a new spot now...

I remember back in the mid 90s playing in the largest ASA tournament in the Midwest the Cincy Metro and one of the vendors was the bat doctor. He had the equipment onsite to roll a composite or fix a dent in your Ultimate weapon, Super cell or chrome dome TPS. Back then Miken was the top CF MFG with the Hybrid. Very ugly looking bat with the lime green graphics but it had a ton of pop.

Look for down the road there to be ball changes that will happen at all levels of Fastpitch (just like slowpitch). Everyone will be striking 50/52cor 275/ 300 comp balls that will help safety and make small ball more of a factor. Hopefully it does not get like some of the mens game where teams have to buy balls before the tournaments or in league play. Naturally; the balls last 4 innings or less and then its like hitting a pillow.
 
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Wishuwereme

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With as hot as this topic was before the great crash of 2014, I find it difficult to believe that there aren't any opposing views.
 

coachjwb

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It was only hot before the crash because there was someone associated with fastpitch who had the equipment to do this. It's clearly against all of the rules, so it's clearly "cheating". Even if someone was doing it or didn't think there was anything wrong with it, they sure in the heck aren't going to admit it here and set up themselves, their DD and their DD's team for a public lashing.
 
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