A different theory on lineups ... especially in timed games

default

default

Member
So we're looking at another crappy weather today tomorrow, so here's something to think about and debate on a day off ...

I've been doing some reading and thinking (dangerous I know!) about how batting lineups are created. I think most of us are familiar with the traditional lineup strategies that have been used for many years ... good batting averages and speed at the top of the lineups, good power in the middle, and the weaker hitters near the bottom though ideally some speed at the very bottom to ideally be on base when the top comes up. In recent years, OPS (on base plus slugging) has surfaced as a stat with some theories about how that might affect the way teams are put together (e.g., Moneyball) as well as potentially on lineups.

The more I think about our game of fastpitch softball, and especially in this day and age of timed games in travel ball (which I have gone on record many times to say I hate!), the more merit I think there is in looking at how lineups are constructed a little differently than they are done in traditional baseball. As we all know, a lot of timed softball games end up going only 5-6 innings, and sometimes even shorter. What that can result in often is the top part of the lineup getting up maybe 3 times in a game and the bottom only twice, or worse yet the top only twice and the bottom only once. In these 2 scenarios, we are talking about the top of the order getting potentially getting up 50-100% more than the bottom of the order in shortened games! In a 9 inning baseball game, the difference is still a lot but not nearly as much ... e.g., 5 plate appearances vs. 4 is only a 25% difference.

I think a pretty direct correlation can be shown between OPS and run production, so my premise is that if you know you're likely to play a shortened game (and maybe even in 7 inning games), that the best lineup might be to simply arrange your lineup from highest OPS to lowest. Another way to think about lineups is if you're down to your last batter, who do you want up the most, and I would argue that it's likely to be the batter with the highest OPS.

Of course, there are many other factors like how good and representative your stats are, how recent they are and who's hot and cold, who is likely to do well against a certain type of pitching, etc., but I'd love to hear some debate about what I'm suggesting here. Maybe you'll convince me I'm dead wrong, but maybe I will get you to think about lineups just a bit differently too. JoeA ... I know you love this side of the game ... will be great to hear your thoughts!
 
default

default

Member
jwb, I think that is a great thought. It is definitely true that, the fewer innings played, the more important the top of the lineup becomes. Imagine if there were one-inning games? The top four or five batters mean everything at that point.

I also agree that OPS is the best standard we have for measuring offensive performance. I'm not sure about arranging the order 1-9 based on OPS, though, because you might want the higher OBP people at the top and the ones with the higher slugging % around 3-5 so their doubles and HRs can drive in the high OBP girls.

The other thing with lineups is that I think many of us tend to move people up and down based on who is hot. Typically, after about 15-20 games I will settle on a fairly set lineup for the rest of the season, but that hasn't happened this year because we're not scoring nearly enough runs. I batted a girl fifth yesterday who hadn't had an at-bat in two weeks and she hit a home run to give us a 1-0 lead and went 2-3 on the day with three hard-hit balls, so who knows, we're all mostly guessing.
 
default

default

Member
Oklahoma had the hitters and plate discipline last year to employ an atypical line-up that was incredibly effective - high OPS on top, sluggers in the middle and speedy table-setters at the end. The depth of their line-up gave their hitters the confidence to be selective and gladly take walks if they didn't get a good pitch to hit. They knew the next batters could drive them in and the other team couldn't pitch around all of them.

Besides ensuring their best hitters got the most AB's as JWB posted, they also got rid of the 1st inning foreplay and made the other team deal with their most dangerous hitters right away.
 
default

default

Member
Let me spin this a little differently. I would agree that a lot of this is guessing and gut feeling, and we all know that stats can lie as well. As a coach though, as you think about that lineup, should you be thinking in the traditional conventions, or some other way? Let's assume your 5-9 hitters are all the same, and you're only looking at 1-4. Let's say their stats (or what you would expect their stats to eventually be) look something like this over the course of a 70 game travel season ...

PlayerBAOBPSluggingOPSSBSac.
A0.3500.4500.4000.850305
B0.3000.3500.3500.7002020
C0.4500.5500.7501.300105
D0.4000.5001.0001.50022

A traditional batting order might be exactly as they're listed above. High batting average and great speed leading off, good speed and great bunter batting second, "best hitter" batting 3rd, and best power hitter batting 4th. Might you be better off especially in a 5 inning game maybe batting them D, C, A, B? If not, let's suppose you're coming up to bat in the last inning down by 1, 2 outs, tying run on base ... who do you want up? Let's say that person gets on, who do you want up next?
 
default

default

Member
This is the kind of stuff that can keep you up all night! I would like to see what everyone comes up with. One stat that I try to consider at the top of the order is strike-out%. It hurts to have K's when you have runners on.
 
default

default

Member
One stat that I try to consider at the top of the order is strike-out%. It hurts to have K's when you have runners on.

But it doesn't hurt as bad as having a ground-ball hitter there who has greater potential to hit into a double play... See; we can overthink this from 8 different angles!
 
default

default

Member
Look at your strike out % vs the walk % for total AB when doing this it may alleviate some of those sleepless nights.
 
default

default

Member
Strikeouts are painful, but an out is an out. If I have a player who hits a HR every 3rd at bat, but strikes out the other two times, I'd much rather have her batting more often than another player who gets a single every 3rd at bat, but grounds out the other two ... and I might even make a case that I want the power hitter up more than the other player even if the other player is getting two singles every 3 at bats.
 
default

default

Member
Here's another stat to think about ... over the course of say a 72 game travel season, you might expect your last batter of the game to be pretty evenly split throughout your lineup ... in other words, you would expect your leadoff hitter to be the last batter 8 times, your #2 8 times, etc. That means over the course of the season that the #1 hitter will get up 8 times more than the #2 hitter, 16 times more than the #3 hitter, 24 times more than the #4 hitter, etc. If your #4 hitter has the highest OPS and therefore the best chance of producing runs, do you want her batting 24 times less than the leadoff hitter? And for those who like to make the #9 hitter a high on base batter, do you want her batting 64 times less than the leadoff hitter?!
 
default

default

Member
It depends on how you coach. I happen to be a big fan of moving runners, squeeze etc. Now that can keep you from having bigger innings but more often than not, it will get you leads of 2-0 or 3-0 rather than that .333 hitter that only comes through 1/3 times so you are looking at a 0-0 instead. So I would like a high obp person batting first (hopefully with some speed) and a decent hitter that can move runners second followed by 3-5 hitters that are the best rbi folks. The squeeze is the least under-utilized play in softball. If you execute it (and teaching someone to bunt is alot easier than teaching someone to hit), the only defense to it is a pitch out. Folks 95% of the time throw home, don't get them and then the bunter is standing on 1st or even 2nd if the ball gets caught up in the play at the plate. Give me a double and watch me sac, squeeze every time.
 
default

default

Member
CoachMurph ... don't get me wrong ... I have always coached the same way (though I will say I haven't been very aggressive and/or at least successful on squeezes). And of course a lot depends on your pitching and whether you think you can shut down the other team, etc. This thread though is more food for thought or debate, especially as it relates to shortened games ...
 
default

default

Member
I admit it that I took it a different direction but it is probably because we are in the middle of high school ball and most coaches don't steal or squeeze and it frustrates me. That is despite the fact that the catching and pitching is generally much weaker. My kid will steal 25-30 bases in the summer and only 5-10 in a shortened hs season. I just don't get it and it is most hs coaches. If you really emphasize bunting, and I mean emphasize it, you should be able to score 95% of the time. Have you ever seen a girl called out for leaving 3rd early? I have not in 20 years! When I coached for Championship Fastpitch, we won a game vs a name organization squeezing home 4 of our 5 runs and they scored 4 on home runs. We won 5-4. My experience is that if you make 2 or less errors in a game and execute on every bunt called for, you win 80% of time. Speed and defense don't ever go into a slump.
 
default

default

Member
Jeff, I think you are wasting all of your talking points for radio show tonight. Lol.
 
default

default

Member
Lol @ Andrew ... I doubt if this topic comes up tonight, but I do think it would be an excellent one some day ... and just so you know, I didn't use all my ammunition yet ... I have some more in my back pocket! ;)
 
default

default

Member
Here's another stat to think about ... over the course of say a 72 game travel season, you might expect your last batter of the game to be pretty evenly split throughout your lineup ...
You might expect that on the surface, but it won't be an even distribution for several reasons. Most notably, the probabilty of each batter making the last out will vary by their ability (i.e. avoid making the out). So, even if the batter making the next to last out is evenly distributed, the batter making the last out will not. In turn, the probability for each batter is dependent on the probability of the batter before them. The better hitters are less likely to get out which also increases the chances for the batter after them making the last out.

in other words, you would expect your leadoff hitter to be the last batter 8 times, your #2 8 times, etc. That means over the course of the season that the #1 hitter will get up 8 times more than the #2 hitter, 16 times more than the #3 hitter, 24 times more than the #4 hitter, etc. If your #4 hitter has the highest OPS and therefore the best chance of producing runs, do you want her batting 24 times less than the leadoff hitter? And for those who like to make the #9 hitter a high on base batter, do you want her batting 64 times less than the leadoff hitter?!
High OBP doesn't mean highest on the team. Usually it is just relative to the other candidates at the bottom of the order.
 
default

default

Member
SoCal ... on the even split of last batters, I did realize that but didn't want to make it too confusing ... but I think the point is still relevant that over the course of the season, the players at the top part of the order are going to get up a lot more often ... it might not be 50-60 times more, but it will be at least 30-40.

On the bottom of the order thing, I probably didn't explain well enough where I was coming from there. I have seen and heard some coaches over the years who would put a really good hitter (though certainly not the best on the team) at the bottom of the lineup there because she was fast and they wanted her up right before the top of the order ... while I understand that philosophy, my point is that it she will get a lot less at bats down at the bottom of the order over the course of the season and that may more than offset any advantages gained ...
 
default

default

Member
SoCal ... on the even split of last batters, I did realize that but didn't want to make it too confusing ... but I think the point is still relevant that over the course of the season, the players at the top part of the order are going to get up a lot more often ... it might not be 50-60 times more, but it will be at least 30-40.
I think you're correct saying the difference between #1 and #9 will be nearly 1 per game (e.g. 64 on 72 games). It just won't be an even distribution across the line-up.

The most productive line-up for a team depends largely on the types of players and the offensive philosophy of the coach. It would be fun to have a simulator where you plug in a line-up with some offensive tactics and see how they perform.
 
default

default

Member
Lol...the simulator!

Bored 2 years ago during the winter: I (for craps and giggles) took my kids 'MLB' Playstation game and created players off of 'ratings' to how I rated girls that I had tryout that season.
Let it play out, of course was hard to simulate because didnt have enough pitchers to fill a MLB roster...and having my best hitter was also a P didnt help either...but was interesting till the 'Reds' nearly lost 100!

Yeah, I'm a geek... :rolleyes:
 
default

default

Member
I think a pretty direct correlation can be shown between OPS and run production, so my premise is that if you know you're likely to play a shortened game (and maybe even in 7 inning games), that the best lineup might be to simply arrange your lineup from highest OPS to lowest. Another way to think about lineups is if you're down to your last batter, who do you want up the most, and I would argue that it's likely to be the batter with the highest OPS. !

I really like this conversation and I agree with the statement, however are there some hitters that just perform better at lead-off and some that need to see others get on base first?

I am coaching school ball for the first time and after coaching timed travel games, I keep rethinking my line-up strategy. Typically I have placed the batter with the best average at #3 and my best (or next best) OBP at #1. With the exception that occasionally I have had a strong hitting team and my best hitter was a slugger and in the #4 position. Recently I have started putting the best OBP in the #1 position, and worked down in OBP. This did not work with some, because I think (and maybe I am wrong) some batters and better at lead-off because they know their "hitting zone" and can "work the count" to get on. Others may need to see the pitcher throw first.

Are there other characteristics of a lead-off batter other than high OBP? If so, what are they?
 
default

default

Member
however are there some hitters that just perform better at lead-off and some that need to see others get on base first?

I'm not so sure about the need to see others get on base first as an indication of a valid reason for hitting or not hitting. Though it may seem that way, I think it's more of a result of seeing different pitch sequences throughout their at bat that may give one that impression. There's really no difference in the teams need to get both the #1 hitter and #8 hitter on base, but they're most likely going to see a larger variety in the type of pitches that they are going to encounter. In order to explain this further, you have to explain it in reverse...

Nobody wants to put the #8 and #9 hitters on base to face the top of the lineup within the same inning. Those #1 and #2 contact hitters will most likely put the ball in play, in order to score those bottom of the order hitters. This calls for the pitcher to shrink their strike zone, and not "nibble" too much. Take the chance on letting the defense work, rather than risk a walk or hit batter. If there is a big disparity in talent between an opposing teams #1/#2 and their #8/#9, those bottom hitters could see not much more than 3 or 4 fastballs somewhere within their hitting zone (depending on pitchers arsenal as well), as opposed to a solid #1/#2 that could see a variety of off-speed and movement pitchers at the edges of their hitting zones. Some pitchers are more comfortable working from behind in the count at times, and can be very effective in handling a strong top of the order.

With most things being equal for the sake of argument, your top of the order hitters just tend to take their at bats with a slightly more disciplined mental approach of the need to get on base at all costs. Their success requires them to be more aware of their hitting zone, while also being able to make decent contact throughout a larger hitting zone, and also generally being better off speed/movement pitch hitters. Whether it's through a more developed sense of visualization/tracking, bat speed, decision-making etc., the utilization of those skills are largely dependent on mental abilities, and awareness of reading into a pitch count at the older ages.

It's a fun little experiment at times to take a #7/8/9 hitter that is hitting well above average and insert them into the #2 spot for a weekend or two to test their effectiveness in what is now a slightly more demanding role. One where the opposing pitcher has to remain focused throughout a more demanding sequence of pitches. You'll normally see an immediate drop off in the hitters output, until they've learned the differences and made the adjustments to adapt or develop more instinctively.
 

Similar threads

Top