another ump clarification please

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bases loaded , 1 out , deep fly to CF . Ball is caught by the CF . girl at third tags and scores . meanwhile the (bad) baserunner on 1st had strayed too far towards 2nd and the CF fires a bullet to 1st to double off the runner. The girl crossed home plate before the tag at 1st --should the run have counted ? If it makes any difference they did not force her out at 1st , they tagged her. MD
 
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Count the run.

The doubling off of the runner at first is NOT a force play. When a batter-runner is retired before safely reaching first base, there can NEVER be a force play made anywhere on the field.

This is a live ball appeal of a runner leaving early on a catch. As such, the run scoring or not is a timing play.

Any runner crossing the plate BEFORE the third out appeal play scores.

Any runner crossing the plate AFTER the third out appeal play does not score.
 
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if the runner did not tag at 1st, that is a force out. Whether or not it was done by a tag of the base or the runner does not matter.. in fact if the runner tagged up and then was thrown out the deffensive team could of got a forth out and got the runner at third to pervent her from scoring by appealing she left early and did not tagup.. thus the forth out play..
 
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I must have missed something. I don't think Dan said anything in his post about the runner on third leaving early.
 
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Parma --sorry having a hard time following your response. Are you agreeing with Bret or dissagreeing with him ? Maybe you saw this play ? (if my memory is correct it happened in my dd's game against your 18u team)
 
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No he did not, just stating that a team can get 4 outs in one inning that count.
 
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I must have missed something. I don't think Dan said anything in his post about the runner on third leaving early.


it was not any type of appeal play, the girl at 3rd did a legal tag and scored, shortly after she crossed home plate there was a play at 1st, the runner had drifted off too far towards second and the CF who caught the ball threw her out at 1st . The defensive 1b tagged her out. MD
 
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soooo are you agreeing or dissagreeing ? he says run should count
 
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bret --to be clear , there was no appeal , the runner who was being overly aggressive off 1st got threw out at 1st before she had a chance to return to the base. MD
 
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yes i remember the play, infact i was the one that said to the ump it was a force out at first. The runner at first was at second base when center fielder caught the ball. The throw to first was up the line to second by 3 or 4 feet, and the firstbseman tagged the runner as she was closser than trying to tag the base...thus the force out as the base runner at first had never taged up. The tag on the runner does not mean it was not a force play.
 
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dang .... I guess you disagree with bret , Bret stated in his 1st response " when a batter is retired before reaching 1st base there can never be a force play" I'll apologize if needed but I still can't decipher do you , or don't you agree the run should have counted ?

maybe bret thought it was an appeal play - hopefully he will revisit this question. MD
 
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your description is 100% accurate --I'm not disagreeing at all with that. Maybe your description will help Bret understand the play. and make sure we get a proper ruling
 
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Thanks for the clarification, MD.

Technically, this is an appeal play. It is a live ball appeal of a runner who left early on a caught fly ball. Live ball appeals don't require any sort of verbal appeal by the defense. All they require is a tag of the runner being appealed.

But we are getting off the point. Whether this was an appeal play or just a routine tag of a runner who was off her base, it doesn't matter one bit. My answer is still the same.

Any runner crossing the plate BEFORE the third out tag play scores.

Any runner crossing the plate AFTER the third out tag play does not score.

This does bring us to the claim that this was a "force out". This is one of the biggest rule myths I deal with and a question that has come up time and time again. This is NOT a force play!

The definition of a force play is when a runner is forced to advance by the batter becoming a batter-runner. Once the batter-runner is retired (as this one was, on a caught fly ball) all force plays are removed.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a force play once the batter-runner has been put out. Once the batter-runner is put out, the other runners are no longer FORCED to advance, they can stop on the base they're on, retreat to the prvious base, or advance if they wish to.

The confusion seems to be that on normal force play, runners are routinely retired by a fielder stepping on a base. On a fly ball where the runner left too soon, that runner can also be put out by a fielder just touching a base.

Doubling off a runner following a catch looks similar to a force play, because the fielder is just tagging the base, so many people just assume that whenever a runner leaves early on a catch that is is a force out. But it is NOT a force out, either by rule or definition!
 
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The answer to the initial question is:
The run counts. The 3rd out was not registered on a force caused by the batter/runner.
 
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The answer to the initial question is:
The run counts and it does not matter if they got her on a force or not. The 3rd out was not registered on a force caused by the batter/runner.

Well, a run scoring or not does depend on if the third out is a force out.

What I'm saying is, this play wasn't a force out.

Count the run!
 
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Had slightly similar circumstance last year but runner on third didn't tag up legally. The girl on first was not doubled off but tagged up legally and was thrown out at second for the third out. Girl from third had crossed home plate. I'm assuming all the other team had to do was appeal she left early and she would be declared out for the 4th out of the inning. We never got that far as all hell broke loose with the weather and rained the tourney out. Still wondering to this day how that would have been handled. Bretman or other knowledgeable people??
 
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Had slightly similar circumstance last year but runner on third didn't tag up legally. The girl on first was not doubled off but tagged up legally and was thrown out at second for the third out. Girl from third had crossed home plate. I'm assuming all the other team had to do was appeal she left early and she would be declared out for the 4th out of the inning. We never got that far as all hell broke loose with the weather and rained the tourney out. Still wondering to this day how that would have been handled. Bretman or other knowledgeable people??

On this one...

The catch of the fly ball was out number two.

The girl thrown out at second was the third out.

The girl from third crossed the plate BEFORE the third out, so her run counts.

IF the defense properly appeals that the runner on third left too soon, then her run would not count. This is what is known as a "fourth out appeal".

IF the defense does not appeal her, then her run still counts.

Are you saying that the rain hit and the game was cancelled right after this play happened? That's kind of strange. But the defense would have had up until the next pitch to appeal this runner and erase the run off the board.
 
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Thanks Bretman, that is what I thought from the previous post on the other situation. I'm pretty sure on the weather thing, I know we never started another inning, I think we had lightning then all hell broke loose. Getting kind of old, memory going.
 
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Well, a run scoring or not does depend on if the third out is a force out.

What I'm saying is, this play wasn't a force out.

Count the run!

Figures, I caught my typo and you qouted me before I was able to correct it. You're killing me! LoL My edit time and your post time are within seconds.
 
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When we checked with a few off duty Blue they all agreed run should have counted (was a close game that coulda cost us -) Parma , you had several kids that looked pretty young , were there a few playing up ?

TNT has 1 college kid , the rest sr's and jr's. and my 15u dd was the lefty leadoff who was subbing for them.
 

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