Another weird call - right or wrong

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SITREP: Girl on 2nd base. She is given the steal sign and the batter the bunt sign. The batter puts the ball down and takes off to first. The fielder fields the ball and throws to first and throws it away. In the comotion the plate ump is hollering foul ball, saying it hit her in the box. After everything is sorted out she comes back to hit BUT the runner went back to third. Batter hits one to center field and runner on third scores. Next batter comes up and the short stop calls time and says she thinks the runner never went back to 2nd base after the foul ball BUT before the hit. Ump says hmm and puts the runner back on 3rd base saying in his judgement she wouldn't have score from 2nd. Correct call or too late after the girl hit.

 

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I want to guess on this one even though I don't know the rule and we'll see what the umpires here say. I would think that the umpire would and should use his best judgment to do exactly what he did, correct the error that had been made on the previous play. Of course, he has opened himself up for a lot of criticism at this point but it seems like that is the right way to handle it.

 

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Boy never heard of this one. I think the ump made a fair judgement call. Is it the same in football that once you have the next play or the next pitch it's in the books?

 

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Boy never heard of this one. ?I think the ump made a fair judgement call. ?Is it the same in football that once you have the next play or the next pitch it's in the books?

You read my mind!!!! I think I'd be mad as a coach either way.

 

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[quote author=wontyoueverlearn link=1210173813/0#2 date=1210176244]?Is it the same in football that once you have the next play or the next pitch it's in the books?

That's the way I always thought it went....once that next pitch was thrown it was too late. Be interested to hear Bretmans response.

 

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Here is the rule from USSSA...

Rule 14.1: Umpires will work to settle all problems on the field. Protests will be allowed for age and rule interpretations only. Protests must be declared to the plate umpire before the next pitch following the dispute. No protest will be allowed following the game. Tournament Officials and UIC will rule on all protests and their decision will be final.

 

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I to think the umpire did right by the situation, but I think it is the wrong call. I am sure Bretman will correct me though if I am wrong.

 

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cshilt .... will all due respect, I don't believe that rule applies here. No "protest" was filed. We are talking about an umpire discovering that an error was made in the placement of runners after a play.

 

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One more tidbit. This was a Jr. High game played with High School rules.

 

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I'll take a stab at this one, most likely an incorrect stab though. LoL

If the umpire signaled to continue play after the deadball and there was subsequent play from that point, the position of the runner after that subsequent play cannot be challenged or reversed and the result of that subsequent play should stand.

Just my best guess.

 

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If I am the defensive team and the umpire, in his opinion, can send the girl back to third that scored, then I want her sent back to second and the batter that hit the ball to center field back up to bat with the same count she had after the bunt was declared a foul ball. If he has the power to send her back to third then he has the power to send her back to second and fix the error completely.

I don't think the umpire can do that after a pitch is made. I am probably wrong but, as the defensive team that is what I would have argued for.

 

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I will throw in my 2 cents on this one as a new umpire! Opening myself up to early criticism without even getting behind the plate. :-X

I do not know of an exact rule that covers this situation, as it is one that hopefully does not occurr often. First a mistake was made that no one corrected. Not the umpire, runner, coach or scorekeeper. The shortstop made a protest prior to the next pitch and some ruling had to be made. I think the umpire had three choices One, technically he could have called the runner out for leaving 2nd base early as she was not on the base when the pitch was released. 2. He could have let it stand, because he did not see it. Or he could move the runner up to the base he believes she would have made it to, which sounds like what he did and I think was the correct call. There are other calls that requires umpires to use their judgement on awarded bases and this, I think would apply here.

Just my thoughts, please correct me if I am wrong here.

 

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cshilt .... will all due respect, I don't believe that rule applies here. No "protest" was filed. We are talking about an umpire discovering that an error was made in the placement of runners after a play.

The point I was getting to, whether it is an appeal or protest, is that it has to be appealed/protested immediately after the play has occurred and before the next pitch. It is like missing a base, if the defense performs a live or dead ball appeal before the next pitch then you have an out. If you don't appeal then and there then you play on. You can't fix it after the batter has hit a pitch and then use "umpire judgment" to place the runner where you thought she should be.

 

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I would say the umpire was wrong in this call. The runner should have been sent back to second base on the bunted foul ball. Once the next pitch is thrown you can't appeal something that happened on the previous pitch.

 

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The "next pitch" would have been to the original batter. I agree that the play should have stood once the batter completed her at bat by hitting the ball.

Just out of curiousity, what if the next pitch had been a ball? Realistically the runner could have been placed back on second with the original batter still up to bat and nothing would have changed the situation. However, with the "next pitch" ruling, the runner would have remained on third base.

 

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Shame on the runner for not going back to second when she was supposed to.

Shame on the third base base for not sending her back.

Shame on the defense for not bringing this up sooner.

But, mostly, shame on the umpire for not making sure the runner had returned before making the ball live again after the foul ball!

You're not going to find a specific rule that covers this- because it's not supposed to happen in the first place. This might be one of the very rare times that an umpire would have to apply rule 10-2-3g: "The plate umpire has the authority to make final decisions on points not covered by the rules."

Personally, here is how I would probably handle this (and I have never had to and hope that I never will!):

- If discovered before another pitch is thrown, return the runner to second without penalty.

- If discovered after subsequent pitches that were not batted into play, return the runner without penalty.

- If discovered after a pitch is batted into play, the results of the play would stand.

The first two options assume that another pitch has not been batted into play. They correct the situation without putting either team an a disadvantage, and effectively put things back where they should be. Note that I would extend the defense's opportunity to bring this up beyond one pitch, unlike a standard appeal or protest. Since this is ultimately the umpire's responsibility, I would not hold the teams to the usual "can't appeal/protest after the next pitch" standard. I would consider it a correctible error by the umpire.

The last option assumes that the ball has been batted into play. At that point, the defense has had every chance to speak up and, if they have not, I would consider it too late. Taking runs off the board and moving runners back on base sets a bad precedent and is likely to cause more problems than it solves. It strikes me as compounding the first error, as opposed to correcting it.

Again, this is just how I would personally handle this. There is no specific rule to cover this unusual situation, other than the one that says the runner should have returned in the first place. If an umpire wants to apply rule 10-2-3g and return the runner to third, that is within his authority. When ruling on "points not covered by the rules", there can be no right or wrong answer. If you can sell that call to both coaches without one of them having a meltdown, more power to you!

 

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Nice job bretman, I knew that there was a general clause like that but I could not find it so I did not want to speak out of turn.

You are also correct that the 3rd base coach should have sent the runner back. I do not hold the same for the runner. This was a middle school game and the players get a little wound up sometimes. Heck just getting to 3rd base is a huge deal in some cases. I do not expect them to know all of the rules at that level. I could see where they would get caught up in the excitment.

As far as the umpire is concerned I think that handling it the way that he did was inncorrect, and not just because the rule said so. My guess is that he had no idea that such a rule even existed. After the next play was made with no appeal or questioning of the ruling then he should have just calmly explained to the coaches that he simply made a mistake and lost track of that runner. He was working the game by himself and he could have explained that there was no way to go back and right the wrong. Of course I am working from the asumption that he did not know the correct ruling anyway.

Good lesson for all.

 

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There are several factor brought forth by Ringer that may play a factor.

1. It was a middle school game and there was probably 1 umpire.
2. The newbies get assigned MS games to get their feet wet.
3. The player may not have known she had to go back to 2nd.
4. The 3rd base coach may have thought a) Hey, I can pull a fast one - or b) doesn't know any more than the base runner.

I am sure the rookie umpire was probably embarassed by this but it would be a good learning experience in developing his/her umpiring skills. If you are inexperienced and doing a game alone - it can be overwhelming.

Given the rule described by Bretman and what I assume to be the case at the game - I feel for the umpire and probably would not make a big issue out of the decision and hope it would be a learning experience for everyone.

 

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1. It was a middle school game and there was probably 1 umpire.
2. The newbies get assigned MS games to get their feet wet.
3. The player may not have known she had to go back to 2nd.
4. The 3rd base coach may have thought a) Hey, I can pull a fast one - or b) doesn't know any more than the base runner.
.....

If you knew this umpire, you would know how funny this statement is. ;D ;D ;D

OK, I'll fess up, PLUS PUT IN A DISCLAIMER. The 3rd base coach was me I hate to say. However, I can assure you that I was not pulling a fast on. There was only one ump and my player knew she had to go back. It was just a perfect storm of events that got out of wack.

1st. The girl was stealing third.
2nd. She went home on the wild throw to first.
3rd. There was a small "inquiry" about the call because I didn't believe the bunted ball hit the batter.
4th. After ump "assures" me that he did indeed see the ball hit the batter, I tell the girl it was a foul ball get back on base.
5th. She trots out as I'm talking to the batter and giving her signs.
6th. I assume runner went back to 2nd but when I turn around, there she is on third. Here comes the pitch, there goes the ball and here we are.

 

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LOL... I could only "assume" but some of you older posters may know what Felix Unger says about the word "assume"