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Is it fair for teams to bring in studs just for Nationals, and I thought Pony was not gonna let it happen ?
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I am sure it happens all the time. But if you are playing 16u-18u the point is to be seen by college scouts. Win or Lose. We where knocked out Friday afternoon, but not before we where scouted by lots of different colleges. Yes it is nice to win, but at this point the purpose is to play hard and get seen. We have done both this year. We will be back next year to do it all over again!
Go Ohio Ice Blue!
Also congrats to Megan "Clem" Allen on your 2nd Grand Slam Home Run this year! Keep playing hard girl!
Go Ohio Ice Blue!
Also congrats to Megan "Clem" Allen on your 2nd Grand Slam Home Run this year! Keep playing hard girl!
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You are only allowed to replace players after July 15th in PONY if you have injuries on your team. These injured players must have notes from doctors saying that they are not able to play and PONY did check for the notes.
So if you had to replace a player on your team, what kind of player would you look for?
So if you had to replace a player on your team, what kind of player would you look for?
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Im not questioning if you have a TRUE injury but only if you are trying to add a ace
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What it really boils down to is ethics and integrity. ?To bring in a player to play in any National tells your players that you don't believe in them. ?Your message is: "You were okay for the regular season, but now that we are going to a National, I've got to get someone better."
In the end, it doesn't matter how much hardware you bring home or how many wins you have, but how you treat people. ?
Fool me once shame on me, fool me twice, shame on you. During the tryouts, ask the coach if girls will be picked up for nationals. If the answer is yes, "buyer beware". It could be your DD that could be suddenly riding the pine for a "Better" player.
In the end, it doesn't matter how much hardware you bring home or how many wins you have, but how you treat people. ?
Fool me once shame on me, fool me twice, shame on you. During the tryouts, ask the coach if girls will be picked up for nationals. If the answer is yes, "buyer beware". It could be your DD that could be suddenly riding the pine for a "Better" player.
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wvanalmsick,
AMEN and well said.
AMEN and well said.
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Wvanalmsick....Nicely put. Same goes for players who quit teams to go to other teams. It all comes down to integrity.
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I know this originally was about "aces". But, from the recent posts it has become about players being picked up and playing in front of original team players. We recently moved to OH and therefore couldn't have tried out in the fall. My dd was picked up for NSA Nat's by a team. She did not start and only played when unfortunately a girl was injured. Although I really wanted to see my dd play I respect the coaches for playing their original team members first. I am not saying that my dd was better than what they had just an example of someone being picked up to play for a National tournament.
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I say you stick with what got you there !
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Picking up a player gives an opportunity for committed players looking to showcase their skills, whose team is not goimg to the world series for whatever reason a chance to be seen. Our team could have gone to the world series but chose not to go, because of players vacations, summer school, injuries.
My DD is a pretty good hitter and was asked by more than one team to switch teams during the season. We made a committment to the team, and did not want to leave them shorthanded.
Why not add a player, not due to injury, possibly the team has a player that choses to vacation instead of play, has summer school committments, parents decide they cannot afford the trip to the world series, or decide they do not want to spend the money to travel out of state because their DD only has two hits for the summer? ?It appears the incentive is to finish the playing season before July 15 and switch teams if needed. ? ? ?
I had a mother I work with tell me she tried to talk her DD into a trip to Disney instead of traveling 800 miles to a world series because her DD rarely plays. Imagine a solid team forfeiting world series games because they lack enough players to take the field. I believe that situation did occur at the USSSA tourney in Indiana.
Frankly, if the other team can find an Ace pitcher from California to come pitch in Pony bring it on, my DD wants to play with and against the best that can be offered in a national tourney.
I suppose the incentive is for your DD to play hard and produce every week. When you get to college the coaches will be looking to bring in players, so except the challenge now.
Speaking of coaches ? ?I have to believe the majority of the college coaches want to see the best players they can. If I had a choice, I would attend the tourney(s) that allow late pick ups so I could see the best players play against the best players.
Consider effect on middle tier teams, if players do not have the option to be picked up, the players will be more likely to attend tryouts for top tier teams to assure world series play, if if it might mean a bit more pine time. Why would a stud take a chance on a lower level team, hoping to help build the program if they potentially will be left out in the cold.
My DD is a pretty good hitter and was asked by more than one team to switch teams during the season. We made a committment to the team, and did not want to leave them shorthanded.
Why not add a player, not due to injury, possibly the team has a player that choses to vacation instead of play, has summer school committments, parents decide they cannot afford the trip to the world series, or decide they do not want to spend the money to travel out of state because their DD only has two hits for the summer? ?It appears the incentive is to finish the playing season before July 15 and switch teams if needed. ? ? ?
I had a mother I work with tell me she tried to talk her DD into a trip to Disney instead of traveling 800 miles to a world series because her DD rarely plays. Imagine a solid team forfeiting world series games because they lack enough players to take the field. I believe that situation did occur at the USSSA tourney in Indiana.
Frankly, if the other team can find an Ace pitcher from California to come pitch in Pony bring it on, my DD wants to play with and against the best that can be offered in a national tourney.
I suppose the incentive is for your DD to play hard and produce every week. When you get to college the coaches will be looking to bring in players, so except the challenge now.
Speaking of coaches ? ?I have to believe the majority of the college coaches want to see the best players they can. If I had a choice, I would attend the tourney(s) that allow late pick ups so I could see the best players play against the best players.
Consider effect on middle tier teams, if players do not have the option to be picked up, the players will be more likely to attend tryouts for top tier teams to assure world series play, if if it might mean a bit more pine time. Why would a stud take a chance on a lower level team, hoping to help build the program if they potentially will be left out in the cold.
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picking up players for national tourney's is a great way for a team to make sure they have the players needed to compete. ?a coach/team has to be honest with their team from day one and then with the additional player who is asked to guest play. ?barring injury or unforseen loss of players then picking up players while being dishonest with your team is an indictment of a coaches ability, ? either to teach the players he or she has chosen or to pick a tournament that the team can compete in. ? players and families have made a large investment of time and money to the team and it should be with the full knowledge of how the coach will handle these situations. ? even if the p/u is a "stud" ?lol.
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Subject is bringing in player to Win. Win Win
It helps if the Ace performs.
Player profle ( resume ) looks a lot nicer with national champs or finalist for college application.
The Best handled was a host team that rotated in a lot of players, liberal use of EP, DH and cycle through the outfield. I did not hear any complaints from the pick up team players when the defense was standing in the grass and the outfielders were against the fence after DD batted. Did not hear any parents say lets not count the runs DD knocked in, and certainly did not hear anyone say give back the trophies because they had a little extra help. A team was kind enough to pick up DD when our coach became ill a couple of years ago and choose not to go to world series. The host team welcomed her, the players treated her like a sister. I also noticed the team posted pictures of the players posing with their trophies on the web site.
It helps if the Ace performs.
Player profle ( resume ) looks a lot nicer with national champs or finalist for college application.
The Best handled was a host team that rotated in a lot of players, liberal use of EP, DH and cycle through the outfield. I did not hear any complaints from the pick up team players when the defense was standing in the grass and the outfielders were against the fence after DD batted. Did not hear any parents say lets not count the runs DD knocked in, and certainly did not hear anyone say give back the trophies because they had a little extra help. A team was kind enough to pick up DD when our coach became ill a couple of years ago and choose not to go to world series. The host team welcomed her, the players treated her like a sister. I also noticed the team posted pictures of the players posing with their trophies on the web site.
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The original players that qualified the team for Nationals earned the playing time over any "ace" that a coach decides to pick up after the fact. Coaches should 1st and formost concentrate on maximizing the potential of existing girls instead of of taking easy way out by seeking out supposed "aces".
If a player (who obviously was good enough to make the team) is not up to par according to the coach who feels the need to bring on "Ace" players then the coach should be working with that player to bring them up to speed.
The original players worked hard to prepare for tryouts, prepare all winter for this teams season via workouts, lessons, etc... The parents worked hard all fall/winter to plan and execute fundraisers to make the season possible.
Why are these players not good enough now.
If a player (who obviously was good enough to make the team) is not up to par according to the coach who feels the need to bring on "Ace" players then the coach should be working with that player to bring them up to speed.
The original players worked hard to prepare for tryouts, prepare all winter for this teams season via workouts, lessons, etc... The parents worked hard all fall/winter to plan and execute fundraisers to make the season possible.
Why are these players not good enough now.
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I posted a tongue-in-cheek message about not wanting the season to end and my daughter not wanting to sit home on weekends after PONY Nationals, and recieved a private message from Bill Lilley, discussing the possibility of her pitching for the Little Slammers in the ASA Nationals. He cited a lack of pitching beyond one girl as his need for another pitcher. We had some brief exchanges, but he had another pitcher who was also interested, so nothing ever came of it.
In retrospect, I am not sorry that was the case. While I give every credit to the girls that play on the Little Slammers and the success that the team has had, I believe that Mr. Lilley's constant promotion of the team is as much related to his own desire for publicity as wanting to highlight a team's success.
I think it is important for all parents to remember that our job it to raise children who can function as adults in a complex world. Softball, in the scheme of things, is irrelevant, other than what it can teach children about dealing with life.
Any person who tells you that their program can help your daughter get a scholarship at a Big Ten school or a PAC 10 school or any school is on dangerous ground, even if they can produce. I say this because the college scholarship is not the end goal - rather it is the education that your daughter will get (and it getting by playing on an organized team). What is the cost? I have said this before - if your desire is to get your daughter a college scholarship, then get a math tutor, your odds are much better of getting scholarship money.
I am pleased about the team for which my daughter plays. We respect each other. We play hard, but fair. Sometimes we lose, but we learn from it. The girls will be fine.
We had the chance to play against a team that had a tactic of sending their runners off first base early. It bacame obvious after the first few steal attempts where our catcher was getting the ball to second when the girl was already standing up. I state that this was a tactic - in my opinion - because I am not the other coach, but the evidence pointed to that tactic.
I would guess that the coach's philosophy was - "Hey, the umpire can call us out, but if they don't, we gain an advantage. So let the umpire make the call." Sounds like strategy on the surface, but I have a different translation. "Cheat until you get caught. The rules say we can't leave until the pitch, but if no one calls it, that is their problem, not ours."
Wow. That is EXACTLY what I want my daughter to be learning. "Cheat until you get caught."
So, back to bringing in an ace. Mr. Lilley has posted elsewhere regarding his philosophy regarding that tactic, so I will not reiterate his beliefs.
My own personal belief is that if that technique is going to cost other team members playing time, then it is the wrong thing to do. It shows a lack of respect for those existing team members. And if the exclusive goal is to win a tournament, then it is probably the wrong thing to do. Not that winning is bad - but winning at any cost is bad.
But I am not a coach - just a parent. My goal is to keep getting better at that job.
In retrospect, I am not sorry that was the case. While I give every credit to the girls that play on the Little Slammers and the success that the team has had, I believe that Mr. Lilley's constant promotion of the team is as much related to his own desire for publicity as wanting to highlight a team's success.
I think it is important for all parents to remember that our job it to raise children who can function as adults in a complex world. Softball, in the scheme of things, is irrelevant, other than what it can teach children about dealing with life.
Any person who tells you that their program can help your daughter get a scholarship at a Big Ten school or a PAC 10 school or any school is on dangerous ground, even if they can produce. I say this because the college scholarship is not the end goal - rather it is the education that your daughter will get (and it getting by playing on an organized team). What is the cost? I have said this before - if your desire is to get your daughter a college scholarship, then get a math tutor, your odds are much better of getting scholarship money.
I am pleased about the team for which my daughter plays. We respect each other. We play hard, but fair. Sometimes we lose, but we learn from it. The girls will be fine.
We had the chance to play against a team that had a tactic of sending their runners off first base early. It bacame obvious after the first few steal attempts where our catcher was getting the ball to second when the girl was already standing up. I state that this was a tactic - in my opinion - because I am not the other coach, but the evidence pointed to that tactic.
I would guess that the coach's philosophy was - "Hey, the umpire can call us out, but if they don't, we gain an advantage. So let the umpire make the call." Sounds like strategy on the surface, but I have a different translation. "Cheat until you get caught. The rules say we can't leave until the pitch, but if no one calls it, that is their problem, not ours."
Wow. That is EXACTLY what I want my daughter to be learning. "Cheat until you get caught."
So, back to bringing in an ace. Mr. Lilley has posted elsewhere regarding his philosophy regarding that tactic, so I will not reiterate his beliefs.
My own personal belief is that if that technique is going to cost other team members playing time, then it is the wrong thing to do. It shows a lack of respect for those existing team members. And if the exclusive goal is to win a tournament, then it is probably the wrong thing to do. Not that winning is bad - but winning at any cost is bad.
But I am not a coach - just a parent. My goal is to keep getting better at that job.
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sideliner,
Well said indeed. Coaches like Bigtrain ruin the whole process for the kids. First and formost you have to have fun and enjoy what you are doing before you can learn from it. After reading posts by Bigtrain, it sounds like it's all about him and what he has done for these kids. I wish you luck Bigtrain... I've seen plenty of coaches like you and by year 2 or 3 you self destruct. Maybe I have read you posts all wrong...
Well said indeed. Coaches like Bigtrain ruin the whole process for the kids. First and formost you have to have fun and enjoy what you are doing before you can learn from it. After reading posts by Bigtrain, it sounds like it's all about him and what he has done for these kids. I wish you luck Bigtrain... I've seen plenty of coaches like you and by year 2 or 3 you self destruct. Maybe I have read you posts all wrong...
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I think a lot of people are missing the point.
1 some very good players will not go to nationals if their team fails to qualify or decides not to go for whatever reason.
2 many team operate with only 10 or 11 players, if you have an injury a lot of parents may have drove over 1000 miles to see their DD's forfeit
3 many girls do not want to go to nationals, be it injury, expense, boyfriend, work, tired of sitting on bench. why not let a team pick up a dedicated player instead of the one that is only playing because her high school coach told her to play and has no intention of traveling several states for a week long tourney
4 Inclusion does it hurt to have a roster of 12 to 14 players to cover injuries seem to remeber reading about numerous injuries on another thread, and have pinch running and hitting available
5 heat multiple games in a short period do you want your DD blowing an elbow out pitching too many games in a row
DD was asked last year at 18U world series to start warming up as a pitcher DD is an infielder and occasional outfielder has not pitched since little league one pitcher decided to not go to world series, another got hurt and the third pitcher had pitched several games in a row and was just beat might have been interesting to see her pitch in a world series might also have been dangerous for her and the other infielders if she hung one down the middle
I bet a lot of catchers catching in 100 degree plus heat would appreciate a little help it was announced at 100 degrees at 8PM at the 18U tourney last year do you want your DD to have heat exhaustion
6 this is not high school ball, if a player is afraid of a little outside competition maybe they should try soccer
7 my DD enjoyed batting against " Aces " many pitchers off college rosters she knows without a doubt than she can hit against the best you can bring
one of my favorite world series moments was watching a couple of dozen coaches bored coaches leave the shade and crowd around the back screen after a pitcher had no hit a couple of teams when DD fouled off about a dozen pitches and then doubled, and they were around the screen everytime DD came to bat ( Big Ten, SEC, ACC .... )
I am not saying leave a regular team member buried on the bench, but why not have some extra help available
treat it like a major league fall call up and add to the roster
1 some very good players will not go to nationals if their team fails to qualify or decides not to go for whatever reason.
2 many team operate with only 10 or 11 players, if you have an injury a lot of parents may have drove over 1000 miles to see their DD's forfeit
3 many girls do not want to go to nationals, be it injury, expense, boyfriend, work, tired of sitting on bench. why not let a team pick up a dedicated player instead of the one that is only playing because her high school coach told her to play and has no intention of traveling several states for a week long tourney
4 Inclusion does it hurt to have a roster of 12 to 14 players to cover injuries seem to remeber reading about numerous injuries on another thread, and have pinch running and hitting available
5 heat multiple games in a short period do you want your DD blowing an elbow out pitching too many games in a row
DD was asked last year at 18U world series to start warming up as a pitcher DD is an infielder and occasional outfielder has not pitched since little league one pitcher decided to not go to world series, another got hurt and the third pitcher had pitched several games in a row and was just beat might have been interesting to see her pitch in a world series might also have been dangerous for her and the other infielders if she hung one down the middle
I bet a lot of catchers catching in 100 degree plus heat would appreciate a little help it was announced at 100 degrees at 8PM at the 18U tourney last year do you want your DD to have heat exhaustion
6 this is not high school ball, if a player is afraid of a little outside competition maybe they should try soccer
7 my DD enjoyed batting against " Aces " many pitchers off college rosters she knows without a doubt than she can hit against the best you can bring
one of my favorite world series moments was watching a couple of dozen coaches bored coaches leave the shade and crowd around the back screen after a pitcher had no hit a couple of teams when DD fouled off about a dozen pitches and then doubled, and they were around the screen everytime DD came to bat ( Big Ten, SEC, ACC .... )
I am not saying leave a regular team member buried on the bench, but why not have some extra help available
treat it like a major league fall call up and add to the roster
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I can see some of your points, softball_taxi. You seem to be speaking from the other side (the side of the ace coming in). Looking at it from the team members' side, I can see bringing in an ace for Nationals as a negative unless all the girls can't go. Does the coach tell the girls at the beginning of the season that their goal is to go to Nationals, but he may bring someone in to replace them at that point, even if they earn the berth themselves?
Last year, we saw a team from Chicago who had picked up a player who had played for a different traveling team in their area that season. At Nationals, this girl was the #1 pitcher and the clean-up batter, while other original team members sat on the bench. They had not had an injury or anyone who refused to go, from what I knew - plenty of players. This girl really carried the team as far as they went (as much as one pitcher/hitter can) and I always wondered how the girls and parents valued that achievement as a team at that tournament. There's something special about working as a team all season, earning a spot at Nationals, and going as far as they can.
Last year, we saw a team from Chicago who had picked up a player who had played for a different traveling team in their area that season. At Nationals, this girl was the #1 pitcher and the clean-up batter, while other original team members sat on the bench. They had not had an injury or anyone who refused to go, from what I knew - plenty of players. This girl really carried the team as far as they went (as much as one pitcher/hitter can) and I always wondered how the girls and parents valued that achievement as a team at that tournament. There's something special about working as a team all season, earning a spot at Nationals, and going as far as they can.
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Taxi, sideliner, and another mom- all have valid points. it's all about balancing all these factors and KEEPING IT FOR THE GIRLS!!
It would be interesting to know if Little Slammers needed a pitcher (due to injury, girls not going, etc) or truly just wanted to pick up an "ace'.
I think all would agree adding players due to an injury or short a player helps the entire team - they all get to play and gain experience - picking someone else up and sitting the orginal team- not so cool - but unfortunately we all know it is done.
It would be interesting to know if Little Slammers needed a pitcher (due to injury, girls not going, etc) or truly just wanted to pick up an "ace'.
I think all would agree adding players due to an injury or short a player helps the entire team - they all get to play and gain experience - picking someone else up and sitting the orginal team- not so cool - but unfortunately we all know it is done.
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Let me start by saying that IMHO "you should play with who brung ya". If that means you can't play in nationals because of a lack of committment or injuries then so be it. That should raise questions in your mind about whether you are with the right team or not.
The fact is that adding ringers has been around for a long time and it will continue. Some teams just have to try to win at all costs.
The real question is whether this is being done within the rules of the Association. If it is then there really is no reason to be concerned. If it is not done within the rules then the Association has a problem. I think that most of us that have been around for a while can site many times where this is done outside the rules - including at this years Nationals / WS.
The fact is that adding ringers has been around for a long time and it will continue. Some teams just have to try to win at all costs.
The real question is whether this is being done within the rules of the Association. If it is then there really is no reason to be concerned. If it is not done within the rules then the Association has a problem. I think that most of us that have been around for a while can site many times where this is done outside the rules - including at this years Nationals / WS.
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I must have hit my head too hard when I fell off the turnip truck...because I surely am missing something here. We could not possibly be saying that it is ok to have the "regular" team members do all the work and then let someone who has no commitment to the team play in the Nationals in one of their places. The commited team members played in heat, rain, mud and sometimes played hurt or not feeling well because they had a dream to play in the Nationals. They worked hard even in the off season to get better. Their parents worked at raising money for out of towners and the expense of hotels. I cannot believe that any person associated with a team would allow this mockery. We played in the Nationals and we never once thought that anyone should play except the girls that "earned" the right to play. Any true athlete would never take something that they had not earned. If the "aces" are so good why did they not play on your team to start? It is a sad day in our society when such unethical behavior is accepted in Girls softball. Our girls definitely deserve better than this. The game of softball deserves better. Any good coach knows that it is not all just about winning at any cost.
I must have hit my head too hard when I fell off the turnip truck...because I surely am missing something here. We could not possibly be saying that it is ok to have the "regular" team members do all the work and then let someone who has no commitment to the team play in the Nationals in one of their places. The commited team members played in heat, rain, mud and sometimes played hurt or not feeling well because they had a dream to play in the Nationals. They worked hard even in the off season to get better. Their parents worked at raising money for out of towners and the expense of hotels. I cannot believe that any person associated with a team would allow this mockery. We played in the Nationals and we never once thought that anyone should play except the girls that "earned" the right to play. Any true athlete would never take something that they had not earned. If the "aces" are so good why did they not play on your team to start? It is a sad day in our society when such unethical behavior is accepted in Girls softball. Our girls definitely deserve better than this. The game of softball deserves better. Any good coach knows that it is not all just about winning at any cost.
