Bringing Slow Pitch Back to Life

[Scott Kuhnen]

For consideration in Ohio: After decades serving with USSSA, some local Directors and programs are now affiliating with WSL (World Sports League). In my own case, having also served at one time as a USSSA Youth Slow Pitch National Director, and still believing that there is a place for slow pitch in our local communities, I'd like to now gauge interest in bringing the slow pitch game back to life at local levels?

The switch to WSL, which has never previously offered youth sports but is now offering Girls Fast Pitch under the leadership of Beavercreek's Terry Folino, offers a fresh start to bringing back youth slow pitch as a great starting point (at younger ages) and alternative to fast pitch (at older ages), and has the potential to keep kids playing the game rather than being left behind.

It's always important to stress...especially to the fast pitch community...that this is not being done to create competition to fast pitch, but designed to complement it. Most especially at the younger ages, slow pitch offers more hitting, more defensive plays, more base running, more scoring...in a teaching environment which is fun and sets a solid foundation for the more competitive game they may choose to join as they get older.

Having said that, a goal which I believe stands only to help our kids and our communities is to maintain (not abandon) the slow pitch game for those who either choose not to move into fast pitch or find that they simply are not competitive enough. Keeping kids playing is the goal. Good for them and good for our communities.

WSL in Ohio will be looking to hear from and work with community programs which have an interest in creating and/or sustaining youth slow pitch. Could be girls; could be boys; could be mixed girls and boys (like the highly successful Beavercreek Youth Softball Association).

If interested, please feel free to reach out for further discussions: Kuhnen@PlayWSL.com

Thank you!

 

[yocoach]

Slowpitch is where my DD started and there are three local rec leagues that are still offering only SP through 17U in my area. The kids can have a good time, stay in a sport at a somewhat competitive level during Spring/early Summer and be in the sunshine and on the field. Unfortunately, the numbers are dropping yearly as most of these players will never make Varsity on their HS FP teams since they're not used to the speed of the pitching. The opposing view would be that there's something to be said for just keeping them outdoors, off the couch playing video games all day, off of their phones, in shape and having a lot of fun along the way.

 

[Scott Kuhnen]

On the slow pitch side, unfortunately, too many of the current crop of Directors believe the SP game is for adults, and for weekend tournaments, and for...them.
They aren't interested in putting in the time and assuring the long-term viability of the game, which is our younger crowd.
Tournaments are great, but league play is vitally important for development, not just of players, but also for umpires.
I believe this is an area that needs some attention and am willing to help local programs, if interested. Thanks!

 

[Rerun]

I for one think SP is more fun to watch as a parent and spectator. I also believe in the younger age group you would gain more player participating then what you see in the youth leagues and rec-league’s now due to the transit too fast pitch that we see in many youth leagues. We only have one SP league for girls in my area I actually go watch them play because it’s fun. I believe you will have to overcome many hurdles and challenges to get any real numbers back into SP again. But I’m would love see more slow pitch softball and girls on the diamond.

 

[Rerun]

Great read about adult slow pitch, know we’re talking about young ladies playing slow pitch but there’s some interesting things in there that might be worth reading

The end didn't come all that suddenly. In its glory years, the Jock's Nitch Softball Classic drew 140 slow-pitch teams to Pittsburg, Kan

https://www.athleticbusiness.com/Re...ion-decline-challenges-rec-professionals.html

 

[Scott Kuhnen]

Yes, interesting read...and from 2011. Ah, those were the days.
Lots of supposition, and much of it combines into a bad situation.

Cost is always in issue.
Equipment "advances" aren't really advancements if they drive people from the game, which has surely happened in both softball and baseball.

I believe the answer is simpler than all that, at least in some respects.
I believe the solution is really all about people with a passion for the game.

Then, of course, time to spend...and an organization which facilitates their potential success.

I'm ready if others might also be interested.
Warning: All league softball is local. Local facilities are for local players, need local coaches, and need local umpires.

Let's get to it?

 

[penguinswin]

Cuyahoga Falls has had a successful SP program for years. The numbers have fluctuated over the years, but last year was cancelled due to COVID. I really hope they bring it back this year. My DD started in slow pitch with a bunch of her friends and made the move to FP a couple of years later, but played in the summer as much as she could to play with friends every year that were not going to make the switch to FP. Many of whom were only still playing to play with their friends.

 

[daboss]

Okay, here's my 2 cents:

I've been a part of both games. I played both but admit playing adult fast pitch was very limited. I've coached both for girls. I've been involved in debates with some of my closest friends. Some of these friends actually have daughters. Most played adult slow pitch and most never played adult fast pitch. All were men/dads. I was the exception. Their biggest complaints were as parents they didn't want to watch a walk fest and worried about their daughters getting hurt.

First of all, in many cases I believe the parents are selling the girls short. The athlete within them wants the challenge. Secondly, there are no guarantees they won't get hurt playing slow pitch.

To my knowledge, OHSAA no longer offers/recognizes slow pitch for girls and no season tourney to declare a State champion takes place.

Many girls, regardless of your feelings, strive to play for their school along side of their peers. You take a community of girls playing slow pitch till they are 14 yrs old and throw them into fast pitch as freshmen and the results are a disaster. There are enough elements of the games that are different and the transition is brutal for many. Transitioning from fast pitch to slow pitch is much easier, hence why so many continue to play softball as adults and thrive in adult slow pitch.

No coach of the game with any credibility will say let's practice the game with different format and rules one way, then go play in competition a different way. Both games use a bat, ball, and glove but they are different. In sports, it can take years of practice and training to hone your skills. Those things don't come to a player just because the appearance of the games look the same.

I'm sure somebody will get mad at me for what I'm posting. I believe fast pitch is the girls' game. It truly is tailored for them and mirror baseball for boys. It should be held at the same competitive level. While men do play fast pitch, let's be honest. If men could still compete in baseball they would. I didn't mean this statement to be facetious but the love of the game with a bat and ball keeps us longing to play the game at any level. It's why we are willing to play slow pitch well into our adults years.

Girls want the competitive challenge. Dads across the globe need to understand that their daughters are not made of porcelain. They want some equality and held at a higher regard. They want to be respected. Fast pitch softball offers their gender that equality.

Look, I'm all for getting the girls off the couch. I'm all for getting them outside in the sun and fresh air. I'm all for getting more girls involved in sports in general. I simply don't see offering slow pitch to girls 10 yrs old and up as an answer. I'm all for modifying rules at younger ages to get them started into the game, but it needs to be directed to transition them into fast pitch as soon as possible. Their future in the game lies within fast pitch until they can't play it anymore.

My effort to promote fast pitch is in developing pitchers so more teams can be created. In all honesty, that's the only factor that leaves many girls sitting on the couch or playing video games. Slow pitch pitchers can be most anyone willing to take the circle. It's easier.

Quit making it easy on them guys. That's not what they want. If this is the quest, why aren't you pushing for slow pitch softball for youth boys instead of promoting baseball?

Just my opinion.........

 

[DanMaz]

For consideration in Ohio: After decades serving with USSSA, some local Directors and programs are now affiliating with WSL (World Sports League). In my own case, having also served at one time as a USSSA Youth Slow Pitch National Director, and still believing that there is a place for slow pitch in our local communities, I'd like to now gauge interest in bringing the slow pitch game back to life at local levels?

The switch to WSL, which has never previously offered youth sports but is now offering Girls Fast Pitch under the leadership of Beavercreek's Terry Folino, offers a fresh start to bringing back youth slow pitch as a great starting point (at younger ages) and alternative to fast pitch (at older ages), and has the potential to keep kids playing the game rather than being left behind.

It's always important to stress...especially to the fast pitch community...that this is not being done to create competition to fast pitch, but designed to complement it. Most especially at the younger ages, slow pitch offers more hitting, more defensive plays, more base running, more scoring...in a teaching environment which is fun and sets a solid foundation for the more competitive game they may choose to join as they get older.

Having said that, a goal which I believe stands only to help our kids and our communities is to maintain (not abandon) the slow pitch game for those who either choose not to move into fast pitch or find that they simply are not competitive enough. Keeping kids playing is the goal. Good for them and good for our communities.

WSL in Ohio will be looking to hear from and work with community programs which have an interest in creating and/or sustaining youth slow pitch. Could be girls; could be boys; could be mixed girls and boys (like the highly successful Beavercreek Youth Softball Association).

If interested, please feel free to reach out for further discussions: Kuhnen@PlayWSL.com

Thank you!

i think this is a GREAT IDEA!!!!! All my kids started in Tball - and slow pitch / coach pitch and eventually ended up in fastpitch by the time they were 10 years old. Yes, our team was the best defensive team out there and our girls knew how to run the bases better than most that never played slow pitch... why? because fastpitch at 8, 9 10 yrs old is usually a walk fest or a strike out fest... no action, not many runners, not many ways to increase your softball IQ if nobody is hitting the ball like they do in slow pitch. I honestly feel it gave us a huge advantage in the first few years of fastpitch. I say GO FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!!! and boys playing is great too... to me baseball is boring!! I hated coaching it and hate watching it. There is a certain attraction to the speed of the game in fastpitch and that's why I see guys playing it instead of boring baseball. PLay what you like! The more the merrier!!!!!

 

[Scott Kuhnen]

Okay, here's my 2 cents:

I've been a part of both games. I played both but admit playing adult fast pitch was very limited. I've coached both for girls. I've been involved in debates with some of my closest friends. Some of these friends actually have daughters. Most played adult slow pitch and most never played adult fast pitch. All were men/dads. I was the exception. Their biggest complaints were as parents they didn't want to watch a walk fest and worried about their daughters getting hurt.

First of all, in many cases I believe the parents are selling the girls short. The athlete within them wants the challenge. Secondly, there are no guarantees they won't get hurt playing slow pitch.

To my knowledge, OHSAA no longer offers/recognizes slow pitch for girls and no season tourney to declare a State champion takes place.

Many girls, regardless of your feelings, strive to play for their school along side of their peers. You take a community of girls playing slow pitch till they are 14 yrs old and throw them into fast pitch as freshmen and the results are a disaster. There are enough elements of the games that are different and the transition is brutal for many. Transitioning from fast pitch to slow pitch is much easier, hence why so many continue to play softball as adults and thrive in adult slow pitch.

No coach of the game with any credibility will say let's practice the game with different format and rules one way, then go play in competition a different way. Both games use a bat, ball, and glove but they are different. In sports, it can take years of practice and training to hone your skills. Those things don't come to a player just because the appearance of the games look the same.

I'm sure somebody will get mad at me for what I'm posting. I believe fast pitch is the girls' game. It truly is tailored for them and mirror baseball for boys. It should be held at the same competitive level. While men do play fast pitch, let's be honest. If men could still compete in baseball they would. I didn't mean this statement to be facetious but the love of the game with a bat and ball keeps us longing to play the game at any level. It's why we are willing to play slow pitch well into our adults years.

Girls want the competitive challenge. Dads across the globe need to understand that their daughters are not made of porcelain. They want some equality and held at a higher regard. They want to be respected. Fast pitch softball offers their gender that equality.

Look, I'm all for getting the girls off the couch. I'm all for getting them outside in the sun and fresh air. I'm all for getting more girls involved in sports in general. I simply don't see offering slow pitch to girls 10 yrs old and up as an answer. I'm all for modifying rules at younger ages to get them started into the game, but it needs to be directed to transition them into fast pitch as soon as possible. Their future in the game lies within fast pitch until they can't play it anymore.

My effort to promote fast pitch is in developing pitchers so more teams can be created. In all honesty, that's the only factor that leaves many girls sitting on the couch or playing video games. Slow pitch pitchers can be most anyone willing to take the circle. It's easier.

Quit making it easy on them guys. That's not what they want. If this is the quest, why aren't you pushing for slow pitch softball for youth boys instead of promoting baseball?

Just my opinion.........

 

[Scott Kuhnen]

Always happy to hear all sides; thanks for jumping in!

Adding a couple more pennies to the discussion...but mostly clarification:

1) For participation to be grown, we ought not look at this as an either-or situation. You applaud competitiveness and competitive fire. Good deal. Anyone who has a background in both games will surely understand that our young athletes do like the challenge of making a good play on the offensive side or defensive side. The winners in slow pitch celebrate just as much as the winners in fast pitch. They accomplish something...as a team.
2) In my original post, I tried not to say this was a girls' issue. The slow pitch game is for girls, boys, and mixed-co-ed.
3) As you noted, but many don't much appreciate, both baseball for boys and fast pitch for girls are games which quickly diminish in team numbers with advancing age. Frankly, in both cases that diminishment starts when they reach school age and only gets worse over time. Slow Pitch, on the other hand, especially because there are adult leagues and tournaments, actually expands in participation...and last until...well...hear of Senior Softball?
4) My own advanced age gives perspective on countless organizations in communities which formerly hosted slow pitch leagues with team numbers in the 20-30 range, who then experienced a "switch" to fast pitch (due to school ball, the possibility of scholarship help, and the attractiveness of the Olympic game), but saw their team count dwindle to five or six.

The answer to these organizations, in my opinion, is don't "switch" but merely "expand." Offer both games, but don't make one appear glamorous and make the other appear to be for losers! Cheer them both on, please!
Doing so, in my opinion, will help your kids, your schools, and your communities!

There is more to this story, but only if people who support softball can avoid the temptation to make it one game or the other. Fair?

 

[Scott Kuhnen]

i think this is a GREAT IDEA!!!!! All my kids started in Tball - and slow pitch / coach pitch and eventually ended up in fastpitch by the time they were 10 years old. Yes, our team was the best defensive team out there and our girls knew how to run the bases better than most that never played slow pitch... why? because fastpitch at 8, 9 10 yrs old is usually a walk fest or a strike out fest... no action, not many runners, not many ways to increase your softball IQ if nobody is hitting the ball like they do in slow pitch. I honestly feel it gave us a huge advantage in the first few years of fastpitch. I say GO FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!!! and boys playing is great too... to me baseball is boring!! I hated coaching it and hate watching it. There is a certain attraction to the speed of the game in fastpitch and that's why I see guys playing it instead of boring baseball. PLay what you like! The more the merrier!!!!!

 

[Scott Kuhnen]

Now...THAT'S what I'm talkin' about!

 

[tourn_director]

Any girl that wants the challenge/time required for fast pitch should give it a try. For those who do not, but still want to play recreational softball/be with their friends(boys or girls), etc., would hopefully have an opportunity to play slowpitch but it requires someone local to make it available. And, if a girl playing competitive fastpitch or a boy playing baseball wants to join in on a rec slowpitch game, so be it. I can only look at Beavercreek's slow pitch program and tell you that happens every year.

Beavercreek has around 8500 students from K thru 12th grade to draw from and each year the Beavercreek Youth Slowpitch association draws about 1100 players--and in Beavercreek, there are rec and competitive baseball and softball programs that are also drawing players. At about the 7th and 8th grade we start getting players back who have tried baseball/fastpitch but for one reason or another do not want to continue pursuing those but they do like ball and they like being together with their friends.
In our 11th and 12th grade leagues we had 18 co-ed teams last year. Some of the teams were really good and others not so good. But the players, who are responsible for making their teams, were with their friends and socializing and boys showing off girls and vice versa.

 

[Captain_Thunder]

FASTPITCH SOFTBALL has skyrocketed in popularity over the last couple of decades! Yet, it seems that Women's Slow Pitch Softball has become almost non existent. That has been the hard part for me to understand. Men finish with baseball and start playing Slow Pitch. But the only women you see playing are on co-ed teams. I wonder why more do not look to play into adulthood?

 

[Scott Kuhnen]

This most recent question allows analysis into cause and effect. It's complicated, but I'd like to share some thoughts and, just maybe, help connect some dots.

First let me say, "That's why I'm here!"

Here = fast pitch community forum.

Popularity of fast pitch, most people believe, was introduction of the game into Olympics.
In addition, of course, if high schools and colleges believe that fast pitch suffices for Title 9 remedies, and the farthest they can even conceive (or afford!) is the comparability of baseball for boys and fast pitch for girls, that's where they are likely to stop. That's what they've done. No blame here, as that's where the money (scholarships) is.

But, over time, as the individual incentives for girls to play fast pitch increase and any incentives for continuing to offer slow pitch decrease, slow pitch will dwindle. That it certainly has!

What that inevitability produced was to largely eliminate a natural bridge of girls into slow pitch. I believe that if our schools had created slow pitch programs to ease Title 9 barriers, more of those girls would bridge over into slow pitch as adults. But, in the environment which has been created...why would they now?

So, where does anyone go to have this conversation...but to the fast pitch community...where the girls are playing. To be fair, but only if you believe what I have asserted previously, it's not where all girls are playing, but where some girls are playing.

It has long been my position that too many girls were left behind in that very competitive environment of competing for scholarships in a game which requires a huge investment of time and money in a sport which, over time, dwindles away to almost nothing. While there have been runs at professional fast pitch softball for young women (and USSSA certainly helped to the extent they could), we could still all make the case for "next to nothing" for the vast majority who would like to continue to play.

When confronted with a business case that is based on such low odds of individuals moving forward and up in the game, it doesn't take much to imagine the adverse impact on the vast majority of players or the communities they come from. The numbers are obvious and, to refer to the article provided previously on this subject, Parks & Rec professionals are hugely challenged to understand the loss of their slow pitch programs.

For this fast pitch community I say, "I think you hold the key."

I think the fast pitch community is now the sole bridge between girls playing softball and adult women continuing in the game.

Further, I believe some structural fixes are needed at the youngest ages (let's say 8 to 11) and then again at the oldest ages (let's say 17-21 or beyond).

For some of you, your heads may have just exploded. Why? SafeSport legislation.

Suddenly, the whole challenge just got more complicated yet!

How 'bout we let this rest for now and let people think on it...and re-engage if they are interested? I'm interested, but will need help from people with a passion for the game well beyond where it currently resides.
The only good thing I can share at this moment is that the organization with which I am currently affiliated (WSL = World Sports League) has no baggage in this arena and, just maybe, might be able to craft a brand new youth softball program with a different potential outcome for participants: "Softball For Life."

Thanks for considering!

 

[daboss]

FASTPITCH SOFTBALL has skyrocketed in popularity over the last couple of decades! Yet, it seems that Women's Slow Pitch Softball has become almost non existent. That has been the hard part for me to understand. Men finish with baseball and start playing Slow Pitch. But the only women you see playing are on co-ed teams. I wonder why more do not look to play into adulthood?

I agree Captain_Thunder and will go another step further. Why has slow pitch for adults dwindled in general? Locally, the number of teams are much lower for both men and women in both league and tourney activity. I see a slight insurgence for Co-ed teams but those numbers are going down each year. We can't force adults to play ball but I don't understand why they don't want to. To be honest, I believe the only reason Co-ed teams took a jump in numbers was because men and women alike were struggling to get the number of players necessary to field teams. They've had to merge and play Co-ed to play at all!

Having said this, the number of Co-ed teams playing so****r have gone up. Why? Is the bat and glove too much to carry to the park?

Don't get me wrong. I like the Co-ed participation. For many, adult recreation of any kind is a social time and much needed in our lives.

Slow pitch in general is not as strenuous. It doesn't take the reflexes to play like fast pitch. Umpiring the games are easier in my opinion. But to lose participants to so***r bothers me. lol.

Scott Kuhnen clarified something in his response post that I did not get in his original post. I took the first post to insinuate replacing fast pitch softball and revert back to slow pitch. The concept of "expanding" rather than "replacing" is fine with me. Go ahead and test the waters. Personally, as a business person, I wouldn't invest my money into it being a profitable venture. I wouldn't do it for boys slow pitch either. When it comes to youth sports in our area I simply don't see enough teams participating to make it work. If you added the format to a fast pitch or baseball event thinking it would help fill a void, I believe it would be a mistake. Many tourneys are turning teams away now. Why bother with a second agenda.

As for an alternative to Rec sports programs, locally I believe you will see a division in the number of participants and put both programs in jeopardy. Not enough to play either would be the result, leading up to a division of families facing off to decide which program should take precedence. This civil war had already taken place years ago in our community and fast pitch won. Again, I think the same result would happen if you offered slow pitch to boys under 18 yrs old.

tourn_director mentioned the Beavercreek program working with youth numbers that are mind-boggling to me. I can see it working there as an alternative. 1100 kids participating? Our community has less than 1400 total!!! We are participating in a county-wide program for girls over 11 yrs old to be able to field enough teams to have a league. The entire county Rec program has less than 1100! Our parents are complaining about driving to other villages to play ball at all! I know what you are probably thinking and you're right. lol.

 

[DanMaz]

what i find weird is everyone has their own opinion based on their experiences or their area they live in and it sounds like " it aint working here - it doesnt work" attitude.... this sport is nation wide= just because it isnt active or working in your area.... doesnt mean it isnt somewhere else and doesn't mean it doesn't have the opportunity to grow somewhere where it isn't active yet. throwing around stats and numbers of players from years ago or whenever... where do you all get these stats about numbers anyway and really how accurate are they? how do you know players are being lost to other sports? I mean is there some type of list that shows johnny playing co ed last year but this year he is playing soccer instead? I think its based on opinions not real numbers, but I could be wrong. Why pee in this guys wheaties when he is trying to do something positive. Sorry, but i dont buy this attitude of " oh numbers are down, they all went to soccer"
1 community does not represent all communities. JMHO

 

[Scott Kuhnen]

Glad you caught my recommendations that there is room for both games.
And, frankly, I like that you used the word "business" in there, as well.

There are some who see the game as solely a weekend game, but I don't see weekends as foundational to sports in communities.
Instead I see organizations in communities as foundational to the success of all of the above.

One of the great shames (just my opinion after years of watching and dealing with organizations at the local level) is just how fragile they can be.
By that I mean...just one or two parents becoming board members with one overriding objective can bring the whole organization down.

These organizations, like teams, are hungry for the help which comes with dedicated individuals, but that dedication tends to be short-lived by its very nature.
That is, "My kid is done...I'm outta here."

I believe the best Association representatives have a longer view, act as professional advisors, and can help organizations set appropriate standards and expectations.
Those representatives, generally, cannot run the programs, however. They must rely on that parent/board member dedication I spoke of...and steer the organizations ever so slightly...with positive support.

Finally, back to business: Anyone who thinks they will get rich doing what I'm suggesting is...well...you know.
Ain't happenin'.

Good discussions!

 

[Captain_Thunder]

When my daughter began playing Slow pitch as a 6 year a r old, we did not hear much about fastpitch in my area. My cousin coached his daughter's team in Middletown and they had a tremendous amount of kids that played Slow pitch in his area.

Within the next couple of years, we began to see and hear more about Faspitch at both the Travel and Rec levels. Within 4 years 90% of our area's Rec teams were all now playing Fastpitch and they offered Slowpitch leagues with only a handful chosing to play. That was the publics choice. But a big reason why our high school and the 3 others right around us have basically been one of the 4 teams to make it to State tournament each year for the last decade.

On the other hand, Middletown, which was always a strong sports town continued with mostly a Slowpitch Rec offering. And it showed as their high school really suffered over the last decade in high school Fastpitch.

I think what it boils down to today is - the better athletes and just those wanting to compete in general are going to choose the sport that gives them the most opportunity. Kids no longer go outside and just play. If a kid was not good enough to make the baseball team for his school not too May years ago - there was a good chance you would see him with a group of kids playing softball in someone's backyard! Not sure if in today's society that happens much, but if able to offer, than all the more better!