Cost difference for dbl elim toury

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for my tournament it is anothe $200 dollars to goto 2pp dbl elim vs 3pp single. the cost is bacically umpires

 

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am I missen something here? there aren't that amny more games. and the only thing that is difficult is scheduling the "what If Game" the last 3 games seem to linger on.

 

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Agree with David---the last 3 games can only be played one at a time and when it comes to finals game, the team out of the loser's bracket generally needs a few extra minutes for a bathroom/refreshment break. Then the championship game is generally not timed, so it can easily go an 1:45 . Then if there is an If game, then there goes another untimed game.

Just something to be considered on when the teams get to leave the park. I once had Ohio Ice playing at Beavercreek and by time they finished the championship game it was 830PM and they had a 4 hour drive facing them. It was a good thing we didn't have a If game.

 

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Both tournaments are 4gg with 8 teams

3 games pool play = 12 games
single elim bracket= 7 games
total 19 games


2 games pool play = 8 games
dbl elim bracket = 14 games maybe 15 with what if game
total 22 games 23 with what if game

All of this comes to 3 maybe 4 games more with double elim tournament


Now please correct me if my calculation are wrong.

 

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I used 16 teams as my guide:

4 game guarantee - 3 pool games - single elim

24 pool games (4 pools of 4 = 6 games each pool = 24 pool games total)
15 Bracket Games (8/4/2/1)

39 games total @ $60 per game (I know this is a bit high but wanted to be safe)

Cost = $2340 / 16 teams = $146.25 per team cost

4 game guarantee - 2 pool games - double elim

16 pool games (4 pools of 4 using box bracket for seeding = 16 pool games total)
31 bracket games including the "IF" game

47 games total @ $60 per game

Cost = $2820 / 16 teams = $176.25 per team cost

Net cost per team $30

if you were to give 3 pool games and a 5 game guarantee it would be an additional $30 per team

all in all if a group is charging $300 per team, one age division would net $2460 in single elim and $1980 in double.

I understand that many times the issue becomes finding time for the additional 8 games, in any case my preference would be to pay $330 and play double elim, I believe it is better test for a team as a whole and requires that you develop a complete team.

 

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So far all of your calculations are correct, it does take more games to complete adbl elim and therfors costs more for umps. The tournament does typically run into some late championship games also. I think that is why, atleast I am seeing, mostly 3games into single elim. I like to play the double elim, however, I think it is more fun and negates that sometimes meaningless third pool game. (everyones 3rd game means something) If it's late that just means my team is in or close to the finals!!! I didn't sign up for the tournament to be home watching the race at 330 on Sunday!!!!

Coach K.

 

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Maybe you should look into the way Wrestling brackets work . Winners work thier way to the champioship are both undefeted and play for 1st / 2nd . Others are in losers bracket and work thier way to a 3rd / 4th finish .

 

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strike_three,

I have done that several times at Beavercreek and sometimes I even take the loser of the championship game and have them play the winner of the loser's bracket for 2d place (when there are a small number of teams).

Most tolerate that format but there are several who don't like it all.

All of my events are 5 games guaranteed, but if they were 4 gg, then I'd be tempted to try and start off with the double elim round and then have a consolation double elim round for teams going 0-2 and 1-2 and out.

Bob

 

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"Maybe you should look into the way Wrestling brackets work ."

Last tournament I directed, I did not see girls in singlets throwing each other around. This is a softball tournament not to be confused with wrestling. It is a totally different sport and therefor totally different bracket to decide places.

Coach K.

 

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am I missen something here? ?there aren't that amny more games. ?and the only thing that is difficult is scheduling the "what If Game" ?the last 3 games seem to linger on.

Check you math.

 

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I am a coach and a TD and have been wrestling with this for some time:

We charge $375 as an entry fee.

Based on the above, there is 8 games difference between - 3 pool games/single elim and 2 pool games/double elim.

8 games * [$35 (umpire cost) +$15 (field rental)] = $400 extra for 1 age group.
(Plus - you need to keep groups of 3 rather than 2, so the 2 pool games/double elim - will have 15 teams instead of 16 - so you loose another $375).

Now multiply that by the number of age brackets that your tournament offers. ?Mine has 5, so now we are looking at $775*5 = $3875. ?(assuming that all age brackets are full!)

Last year my profit (which goes to our scholarship fund) was $1700 so I would be loosing money. ?I have tried to find ways to cut costs on trophies etc but any way I cut it - that's money eliminated from our scholarship fund. ?So - my tournament will be 3 games pool play, single elimination.

 

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I am a coach and a TD and have been wrestling with this for some time:

And Your toournaments are always top notch.

One thing your group need to look at is running concessions at all of the locations. I know it is another headache for all involved but that is a great profit maker you are loosing out on

 

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Kris,

You don't need to change the number of teams, the assumption I made is using the box bracket that the ASA uses for pool play.

4 teams play 4 games and you have a 1st/2nd/3rd/4th, no worries about tie breakers, you win 2 game you win your pool.

This would allow 16 teams @ $375, or $6000, using your numbers, 39 games = $1950 in cost or a profit of $4050 before awards.

That is $4050 PER age group.

Box Bracket and Double Elim Bracket would be 47 games including the if game or, $2350 in cost or a profit of $3650 before awards.

Again that is $3650 per age group.

I am sorry but I must ask the question, what does everyone think you need to make to feel it is worthwhile to hold a tournament?

Awarding a $50 item to 12 members of the winning team, and trophies costing another $500 (you can get a ton of trophies for $500), would mean a net profit of $2550 per age group(42.5%), if you were to fill 3 age groups and start on Friday evening you are looking at a profit of $7650 for a weekend, BEFORE gate fees and concessions/T-Shirts. These are rough numbers and I don't think that $50 per game will do it, more like like $75 per game for umpires, field rental, and balls. Still all in all anything where you can realize 30% or more net is a win as far as I am concerned.

 

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DON'T FORGET FIELD RENTAL FEES.

MOST COMMUNITY COMPLEXES NOW CHARGE STEEP FEES TO USE THEIR FIELDS.

PRICES I HAVE SEEN HAVE RANGED FROM $100.00 PER FIELD PER DAY TO $200.00 PER FIELD PER DAY PLUS PORTO-LET RENTALS IF NEEDED WHICH RUN $50.00 EACH AND UP PER DAY.

 

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Kris had $15 per field per game for field rentals, figured into his $50 per game cost. I had included that figure.

If you extend that on a field with starts from 9am to 9pm, and figured on 1hour 30minutes between starts you would have 9 games which would be $135 per field per day.

I really think the number per game is $75 (2 umps @$25=$50 / Field Rental $15 / 2 NEW Quality balls @ $5=$10 / Total $75)

 

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Kris had $15 per field per game for field rentals, figured into his $50 per game cost.

Kris is a Lady

 

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There is plenty more overhead - if we made $4000+ per age group - I would go into this business for my fulltime job!!!

We have to pay for trophies, Porta-potties, electric at the fields, field maintenance, field rental daily fees (not including individual game fees), city permits, trash cleanu-up, bathroom supplies (the amount of toilet paper used at each venue is crazy!!), water/ice for the umpires, balls, supply of lime, field dry in case of rain, UIC fees, printing and mailing fees, on and on......

Keeping all overhead the same, regardless of the format - the extra 8-9 games become the difference between being in the red and making a profit.

 

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Many teams would not play in a double elim. tournament. The appeal for many teams is the guarantee on 3 to 5 games. Two and out would be a miserable weekend for those teams. I feel certain you would see fewer teams enter a double elim. tournament.

 

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Kris,

I understand there are other cost's involved, I have run tournaments, I was using the numbers you provided for comparison, and what you had written. Of course there are other cost's involved, balls were provided in the numbers I amended, umpire fees were not $35 as you mentioned but $50 per game. I also did not include in income, gate fees (if you don't charge them, God Bless You!!), and misc sales of other items, since I can buy a 24 pack of water for $5.99 at normal prices and since everyone sells it for $1 each, not complaing or criticizing just offering facts. Furthermore I understand it is a lot of work, as I have said, I also understand there are other costs involved, but if after all is said and done $600 would put you in the red, then again God Bless You for your efforts.

My opinion remains that a double elim format is a better test of teams and better preparation for Nationals, and I would prefer if given the choice the double elim. The fact remains that many of the overhead costs you mention are fixed and additional games won't affect them, in fact some of the revenue items would increase due to the aditional games, it really comes down to $600, and if that is too steep so be it! I was speaking in general terms, for sake of a discussion that was started by the question, "what is the cost difference for a double elim format",

.............and I think my opinion was $600, if it is more in your mind, ok!.


Riser,

Who said anything about 2 and out? What was mentioned was 2 pool games and a double elim bracket. By my math a 4 game guarantee.

 

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riser. In double elimination you still play 2 pool games prior to being seeded so it is a 4 gg.