Pitching and Pitchers Discussion Crow Hop

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In the first video example, the pitcher was in contact with the ground with the bottom of her foot (a scoot as I was told) then dragged across the ground with the side of her toe on release of the ball. The toe was in contact the whole time with the ground so imo, it is a legal pitch. Umpires will not call it illegal if the bottom of the foot and toe stay in contact with the ground. Atleast, none of the tournaments where my dd pitched (and she has played many games). Maybe because she is 11U and thats not why they are calling it illegal but the umps will not if it stays in contact with the ground. We have had opposing coaches complain, but umps say that foot is in contact with the ground so its not illegal. I understand that it is very close of being an illegal pitch, because of the argument of the replant.

 

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In the first video example, the pitcher was in contact with the ground with the bottom of her foot (a scoot as I was told) then dragged across the ground with the side of her toe on release of the ball. The toe was in contact the whole time with the ground so imo, it is a legal pitch. Umpires will not call it illegal if the bottom of the foot and toe stay in contact with the ground. Atleast, none of the tournaments where my dd pitched (and she has played many games). Maybe because she is 11U and thats not why they are calling it illegal but the umps will not if it stays in contact with the ground. We have had opposing coaches complain, but umps say that foot is in contact with the ground so its not illegal. I understand that it is very close of being an illegal pitch, because of the argument of the replant.

This is exactly my complaint. Umpires will not call an illegal pitch if the pivot foot stays in contact (or at least close) with the ground, even though there is an obvious replant and second pushoff.

 

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Without question, a crow hopper also leaps...

Then here are some questions!

What if the pitcher started out with both feet on the pitcher's plate, then slid her pivot foot forward off the plate, without ever having it leave the ground, then proceded with a normal pitch?

Is that a crow hop? Yes! Is it a leap? No!

Or, what if the pitcher took one giant step forward with the pivot foot, while the stride foot never left the ground, then proceded with a normal pitch?

That's a crow hop, but not a leap.

So it is entirely possible for a pitcher to crow hop without leaping at all. Remember, the definition of a leap is that both feet must be airbourne at the same time.

If a pitcher jumps off the rubber, with both feet in the air, then lands on the pivot foot and delivers the pitch, she has performed an illegal leap. Whatever she does next is irrelevent, since the illegal pitch has already been committed and you can't call more than one illegal pitch on a single pitch.

 

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OK - so let's step through this:

Let's assume that everything is done correctly by the pitcher up to and including her stride and push off of the pitcher's plate. Her stride foot is in the air striding towards home plate; her pivot foot begins dragging away from the pitcher's plate, caused by her stride momentum.

THIS is the point in the motion where I need clarification:
While the stride foot is still in the air, the forward momentum STOPS, and therefore so does the pivot foot. The pitcher's weight is primarily on the pivot foot at this point allowing them a second "push" (however slight). So you have a second push, then the stride foot lands as the ball is delivered. Even though this whole motion is "bang-bang", it has distinct characteristics that allow it to happen.

Let's freeze frame the pitcher you're describing right at this point.

To be considered as "a second starting point" or "a re-plant with a second push off", you would need to see a push off that resembled the same push off the pitcher made in her first initial move from the rubber. That is, the stride foot would need to land at a stride closer to the batter than it would have landed, while the pivot foot would be dragging further forward along with it.

That isn't something I ever see any pitchers do and is something completely different from the pivot foot twisting, turning or digging into the dirt simultaneous with the stride foot landing and the pitch being released.

 

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What if the pitcher started out with both feet on the pitcher's plate, then slid her pivot foot forward off the plate, without ever having it leave the ground, then proceded with a normal pitch?

Is that a crow hop? Yes! Is it a leap? No!

all due respect here Bretman, you're splitting hairs. Again, the layman would not call stepping in front of the rubber to be a "crow hop". By definition, it's the same thing since they are pushing off from a place other than the pitching rubber. But I think the video we're talking about here (hillhouse) wasn't trying to be that technical. Maybe I"m mistaken but I think the ASA Rule book even talks differently about the 2 scenarios you're describing. While calling them both illegal, it refers to them in 2 separate examples of an illegal pitch. And yes, I'm sure you're going to site the page numbers, the rule, the chapter, the verse, and all those other things. Go back through old posts on here and other sites when the Illegal pitch thing was happening with Finch, Abbot etc. and people were talking about how they stepped in front of the rubber, not how they were crow hopping. A clear indication that the laymen does not know the difference.

 

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The easiest thing to do is get a piece of paper and put it on your dd's drag foot. The idea is to get the paper to drag along.

This is exactly what I did with mine and it only took a few weeks and she stopped! Great way to stop it!! :yahoo:

 

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Why worry about they let half the pitchers out there cheat anyways
It's the American way.

 

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Dragging or not dragging has no bearing on a replant. If you think about it, neither does stride length. Consider the Hillhouse demonstration - if he would have dragged the bottom of his foot while demonstrating the "crow hop" or replant, it still would have been a replant. His stride length is actually shorter when he is demonstrating the replant.

This is the SAME motion that I saw called numerous times on DI college pitchers last season. A fair warning to a college-pitcher-to-be... If you are using this type of motion - regardless of what you call it - be prepared for illegal pitch calls.

 

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The NCAA pitching rules are written a little differently. They say that once the pivot foot has dragged away from the rubber that it may not bear weight until the pitch is released.

So, yes, college does have a different standard and different level of enforcement. This "no bearing weight" directive doesn't exist in amateur rules below NCAA.

 

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The NCAA pitching rules are written a little differently. They say that once the pivot foot has dragged away from the rubber that it may not bear weight until the pitch is released.

So, yes, college does have a different standard and different level of enforcement. This "no bearing weight" directive doesn't exist in amateur rules below NCAA.

Thanks, Bret. Considering nearly all my DD's pitching instructors were former DI pitchers, that is probably where their emphasis on not replanting came from, and I was erroneously applying that rule to ALL sanctions. But for a kid who DOES want to pitch in college, learning the "style" that's shown in the video would be detrimental to their college pitching career. I would compare this to the "step back" that's still permitted in high school - while it's perfectly legal in high school play, why even learn a motion that's illegal at higher levels of play? "Unlearning" a pitching motion is EXTREMELY difficult.

In summary, then is it fair to say that a replant as this girl is doing is legal in ASA rules, but illegal under NCAA rules?

 

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The best part to all this is look at all the different ways you guys are describing a crow-hop and a leap, and then we get out to the ball park and you exspect a umpire to call a pitcher for leaping or crow hoppping, and in the back of the umpire's mind he just want's the 50 bucks for the game because he's not sure either if she's legal or illegal. I say to resolve this you must put both feet on the rubber at release and we will call fastpitch modified slowpitch how's that FIXED..But also to make it fair make sure we juice up the bats so the girls can hit it even farther than they do now and we will have outfielders wearing game faces. now it's fixed. such a hard rule to call so i thought i'd p-ost something funny about it ...