Crow Hop - Pitcher

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This is being asked to anyone in 14U .......... older groups feel free to respond too

Has anyone had an umpire actually call an illegal pitch on a "crow hop"?

Over the last two years my DD's have come across pitchers who have had an absolute textbook "crow hop" where the back foot leaves the rubber (no toe drag) then re-plants and throws. Last year, the umpire said there was no way he was going to get into the pitcher's head and change her pitching style ..... at this weekend's encounter, our coach chose not to bring it up because the pitcher was throwing more balls than strikes. (base umpire brand new as well)

We have watched many pitchers who do not drag their toe when leaving the rubber.
Does ASA / USSSA / NSA have this rule in place?
It is my understanding that the NCAA requires the toe drag but Olympic rules does not.

I only mention the two occassions because both of these pitchers were truly bringing it but also had a major advantage when pitching 2 feet ahead of the rubber.

Anytime the word "crow hop" is said, the hitting team is tagged as a bunch of whiners or bad sports. Knowing the hours of pitching both of my DD's have put in as well as the number of shoes that have had to be replaced from dragging their toe ........ It is extremely frustrating when you see an illegal pitch continue to be thrown because the umpire is affraid to make the right call.

 

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This is one that always got my goat along with being out of the lane..."yes completely out of the lane." Pitchers dads always take offense and if the pitchers are breaking the rule, then I say call it. it slows down the game mostly and keeping games on schedule is part of the reason. Now I have seen umpires go out and explain it to the pitcher with the coach there to help as a learning experience, but at the older ages, call it!!

many coaches teach it knowing that it will only get called a certain amount of times, so the risk outweighs the penalty. But that is a disservice to the girls who end up continuing their playing days and get called in college...

if its a rule, I am in agreement, call it. Also sometimes it's hard for blue to tell if there is a hole in front of the pitching plate. But there is a definite pit her advantage for both infractions mentioned above....

 

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Holes in front of the pitching plate understandable.

You nailed it ...... if the pitcher is breaking the rule, make her fix it. Old habits are difficult to break especially if hoping to play at the next level.

Pitcher's moms also take offense when questioning a "crow hop".

 

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As a pitcher's dad, if someone notices my dd do anything illegally, I want to be notified. When she works at home, when she looks at her drag marks. If she notices "clean" dirt, she works harder on making sure to drag the toe.

I wish umpires would call it. Sure it will slow down the game, but if they don't by the time they get into college it's a habit. Then when a college umpire does call it, how often are they pulled soon thereafter?

Personally, I think at the start of the season, especially at the younger age groups, the umpires need to alert the managers that their pitcher is pitching illegally. If the manager is a good manager, he'll take that and start working on his pitchers with that. Come mid-season, those umpires should start calling it. But in orde to do this, the TD's should stop skimping on the umpires and start using two umpires in one game.

 

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Here is a link that explains the difference between a crow hop and a leap. A crow hop is certainly an advantage as it reduces the distance between the rubber and the plate.. A leap is different and there is a school of thought that belives that a leap robs a pitcher of speed... Crow Hopping, Foot Dragging, and More Great softball pitching hints and recommendations for girl softball pitchers

 

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"the umpire said there was no way he was going to get into the pitcher's head and change her pitching style"

LOL!!

So... I assume this umpire uses the same logic when a kid leaves base early??

P.S. - A more descriptive term would be "replant" rather than "crow hop". A replant is the act of a pitcher using a second push-off point, where a crow hop is a momentum building move typically executed by an outfielder. One is legal, the other is not.

 

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This is being asked to anyone in 14U .......... older groups feel free to respond too

Has anyone had an umpire actually call an illegal pitch on a "crow hop"?

Over the last two years my DD's have come across pitchers who have had an absolute textbook "crow hop" where the back foot leaves the rubber (no toe drag) then re-plants and throws. ...

First, what you're describing is a 'leap', not a crow hop. A crow hop is when the back foot is in front of the pitcher's plate when her hands separate.

Second, I've seen it called more in HS games than travel. Umpires in showcases are often told not to call it.

When my DD was a freshman, she did a lot more pitching than I expected because the #1 pitcher, a senior, had a bad habit of lifting her back foot as she came off the rubber (i.e. leap). It was well known in the league and some umpires would call it starting with the first batter. Some wouldn't call it once there was a runner on because they have to watch whether they leave early. If they kept calling it on the next batter, our coach would change pitchers.

My DD was occasionally called for a crow hop because her foot slid off the pitcher's plate an inch or so. It was never a big deal because she would just be more careful after that.

 

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Crow Hop / Leap ... I can change the name but you know what I'm refering to. Leap would better describe what seems to happen quite often. Last year's situation was definitely a crow-hop with a re-plant where she pushed again .... yesterday was more of a leap but did not look like she was pushing off again..... clearly 2.5-3.0 feet of clean (dirt) between the pitching plate and her landing mark.

Bowser ... great link, thanks for posting it.

 

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As the father of a pitcher who has spent many hours and a lot of money on pitching lesons so my dd was doing it right I get a little upset when an unpire says they are only 12 or only 10. The rule is there for all age brackets so call it. I a team does not have a pitcher that can through leagal pitches they should not be on the field. This is travel ball and school ball not 10U rec ball.

 

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As a coach what is the best way to bring this up to blue? call time go to home plate ump and ask to talk to field ump or just call time and ask blue out loud to watch the rear foot because you think her pitches are illegal? It seems like some umps get an attitude if you point out something they did not see like crow hopping. any advise?

 

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Leap,,,, push off back foot, land on front foot. Back foot also loses contact with the ground.
Crow hop,,,,, push off back foot, land on back foot, THEN land on front foot. Back foot may or may not lose contact with ground...

Replant,,,,,,,,, move back foot in front of pitching rubber, then push off.......

Hands separating have nothing to do with leap, crow hop, or replant. Hands separating is the point that the pitch starts and cannot be stoped, i.e. point of no return.

 

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Leap,,,, push off back foot, land on front foot. Back foot also loses contact with the ground.
Crow hop,,,,, push off back foot, land on back foot, THEN land on front foot. Back foot may or may not lose contact with ground...

Replant,,,,,,,,, move back foot in front of pitching rubber, then push off.......

Hands separating have nothing to do with leap, crow hop, or replant. Hands separating is the point that the pitch starts and cannot be stoped, i.e. point of no return.

two feet off the ground at the same time with rear foot landing in front of rubber with no drag of rear foot to landing point no matter if its 2" or 3 feet. -- crow hop? illegal? or legal? really the point should be legal or not legal who cares what its called. lol

 

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I'd casually ask the ump between innings if he and counterpart look and see what they feel is all. If they call it great, if not you at least brought it up.....

 

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Leap,,,, push off back foot, land on front foot. Back foot also loses contact with the ground.

Crow hop,,,,, push off back foot, land on back foot, THEN land on front foot. Back foot may or may not lose contact with ground...

Replant,,,,,,,,, move back foot in front of pitching rubber, then push off.......

Hands separating have nothing to do with leap, crow hop, or replant. Hands separating is the point that the pitch starts and cannot be stoped, i.e. point of no return.

By your definitions, a legal delivery would be a crow hop.

ASA Rules Supplement 40 provides better descriptions than its rules and explains how umpires are trained to call a leap.

A leap occurs when both feet become airborne during the initial move off the pitcher's plate. It doesn't matter which foot lands first.

Umpires should look at the location of the pivot foot when the hands separate, the start of the pitch. If the pivot foot is off and in front of the pitcher's plate before the hands separate, this would be a crow hop and an illegal pitch should be called.

Umpires are not going to call a replant, only a leap or a crow hop, so it's a waste of time and energy to complain about it. People wonder why umpires never call a replant and the reason is - that's how they've been trained.

 

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As a matter of fact, yes, one of my "pitchers" was called numerous times for crow hopping this past weekend. We had our short stop in eating up some innings in early elims at the Wildcat tournament. I've seen blatant crow hops and this was so marginal but was called several times. There was a hole in front of the mound and her cleats were barely skimming the dirt the first 3-4 inches from the rubber. I thought the ump was being overly strict on the rule in this case.

Todd

 

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Does anyone want to hear the opinion of a veteran of the sport?

I've been witnessing coaches (and parents) going ape-s**t over perceived pitching violations for a looong time.
I've seen umpires call "illegal" on the very first pitch of the game, then never open their mouths for the next 7 innings.
We've all seen how Opponents Runs Scored is directly proportional to how often coaches scream "Re-plant".
I even got called for a Crow Hop during the Coach Pitch years... (kidding)

My daughter has pitched from 10U through college. And while her motion isn't exactly "textbook", it always got the job done. (Side note: "Illegal" calls start decreasing in 16U - seldom seen in high school - Never called in college.)

Yes, the rules are written for a reason. All the crow-hopping, re-planting, quick pitching, hands not coming together, etc. is not providing any advantage. Players who are "cheating" are, in reality, learning bad habits that prevent them from ever pitching to their fullest potential. You'll find the best pitchers usually have the "most legal" motions.

My point is: Take care of your own pitchers. If the girls in the other dugout aren't following the pitching rules 100%, so what? Your team will be better in the long run.
.

 

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While the majority of umpires (at least at higher level tournaments) take pride in their craft, many others don't understand the pitching rules, can't recognize the illegal motion, or simply refuse to call illegal pitches because of the controversy. I've heard some doozies over the years - everything from "she's not gaining any advantage" (???) to bizarre explanations of impossible mechanics. I had a school umpire once tell me that the pitcher's drag foot must be in contact with the pitcher's plate at release!

For the sake of sanity, I would suggest just letting it go. As you reach higher levels of the game at older age groups, it becomes much less common. You will see illegal pitches every so often at the DI college level, but they are not as blatant as you see in typical travel ball. I actually feel bad for a kid who blatantly replants (crow hops or whatever) because those poor mechanics are easily spotted by college coaches, and what college coach wants to be stuck with a kid who can't pitch within the rules?

 

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Loooouuu - gonna take ya to task on that one . Think you might have slipped the goggles on . IF , big IF , pitchers are not following the rules it is an advantage . Yes they are results of repeating bad habits but there are reasons why pitching rules are in place -- FOLLOW THEM ! ... FWIW I was thinking all the concentration on " illegal pitches" were going away . Not seeing it called and not seeing parents or coach's hollering for it as much last year or this year . Didnt see it called he entire HS season and the D4 district tourney was plumb full of illegal pitches down here in SEO.

 

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I had the opposite problem a few years ago when Blue went on a tear and called an opposing pitcher for illegal pitching some 8 times in 5 innings (HS). Our kid was wearing off the tops of her shoes dragging so she was fine. I think after a couple calls he had made his point and could have come down on her when only when the bases were empty. It more than changed the game. She was struggling even with the replant, his harping didn't help her in any way.

The softball pitching rules are seldom understood, infrequently enforced, and then not equitably. I have yet to find a way to get blue to call the violation during a game.

Maybe this forum can come up with a magic bullet.

 

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Dan, I know what you're thinking - re-plant gets the pitcher closer to the plate. etc... But, from what I've seen, by the time they've got that "second" step in, they're already off balance, and have very little leg drive. The pitch probably takes longer to get to the plate than it would with a conventional push of the rubber. Technically speaking - yes, it's illegal - Blue should call it if he/she sees it.