Crow Hop - Pitcher

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A crow hop is ANY skip of the foot off the plate with a second push. A leap is one push with foot leaving the ground. Both can add to performance. Some think leaps will not but all you need to do is look at mens fastpitch to see otherwise. Crow hops are obvious as you would ask yourself why would an outfielder use a crow hop. The newest cheat and I call it a cheat because I know of at least one instructor actually teaching this is to execute a crow hop without the foot leaving the ground and pushing again. The thought is that it wont be called because the foot doesn't leave the ground so it must be legal. WRONG! I have seen may girls do this now. Some is by accident and it isn't really helping them but some is all by design. I haven't seen an umpire call it once so far. ASA had a video about it for umpires some time back but still not called. A few people have told me it cant be done however I was able to do it first try and I am an old man. I think crow hops and leaps are easy to spot if first you actually know what it is and what to look for. Not sure why is never called.

 

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Just some food for thought...

Published on the ASA website (Plays and Clarifications, May 2012):

For the past few months or so we have been asked about a pitching style called a "Push, Drag, Push" or a "Crow Drag" in Women's and Junior Olympic Fast Pitch. This is described as a pitcher that pushes from the pitcher's plate, drags her pivot foot, stops and pushes again. We have been told that there are some indicators like a bent leg or the pivot foot bearing weight as a factor in this style of pitching. We have looked at several videos and several pitchers. We disagree that any of these pitchers are pushing, dragging, stopping and pushing again. We can see what appears to be a pivot by the pivot foot at the end of their delivery but not a re-push.

Nowhere in the ASA rules does it state anything illegal about the pivot foot bearing weight or the leg being bent. As long as the pivot foot starts on the pitcher's plate and pushes away, remains on the ground within the 24-inch width of the pitcher's plate and the arm continues without stopping in the delivery, it is a legal pitch. The pitcher opening her hips causes the foot to turn (pivot mark in the dirt) and then with pivot foot remaining on the ground (drag mark), the pitcher then closes her hips which produces another pivot mark in the dirt. This is not an illegal pitch by ASA pitching rules. We would also add, it is not possible to push, drag, stop and re-push while the non-pivot foot is in the air. It is possible to re-push if you leap and land.

From the ASA rule book (Rules Supplement):

Much attention and discussion has been given to recognizing
the differences between the crow hop and the leap on the pitching delivery:

1. A CROW HOP is defined as a replant of the pivot foot prior to
delivering the pitch. This can be done by (1) sliding the foot in
front, but not in contact with, the pitcher's plate; (2) lifting the pivot
foot and stepping forward; or (3) jumping forward from the pitcher's
plate with the pivot foot prior to starting the pitch. Umpires should
look at the location of the pivot foot when the hands separate, the
start of the pitch. If the pivot foot is off and in front of the pitcher's
plate before the hands separate, this would be a crow hop and
an illegal pitch should be called.

2. A LEAP occurs when both of the pitcher's feet become airborne
on the initial move as the pitcher pushes from the pitcher's plate.
In the WOMEN'S and YOUTH Fast Pitch divisions the pivot foot
must stay in contact with the ground following the push off from the
pitcher's plate (*If a hole has been created, the pivot foot maydrag
no higher than the level plane of the ground.)

 

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Just some food for thought...

Published on the ASA website (Plays and Clarifications, May 2012):

For the past few months or so we have been asked about a pitching style called a "Push, Drag, Push" or a "Crow Drag" in Women's and Junior Olympic Fast Pitch. This is described as a pitcher that pushes from the pitcher's plate, drags her pivot foot, stops and pushes again. We have been told that there are some indicators like a bent leg or the pivot foot bearing weight as a factor in this style of pitching. We have looked at several videos and several pitchers. We disagree that any of these pitchers are pushing, dragging, stopping and pushing again. We can see what appears to be a pivot by the pivot foot at the end of their delivery but not a re-push.

Nowhere in the ASA rules does it state anything illegal about the pivot foot bearing weight or the leg being bent. As long as the pivot foot starts on the pitcher's plate and pushes away, remains on the ground within the 24-inch width of the pitcher's plate and the arm continues without stopping in the delivery, it is a legal pitch. The pitcher opening her hips causes the foot to turn (pivot mark in the dirt) and then with pivot foot remaining on the ground (drag mark), the pitcher then closes her hips which produces another pivot mark in the dirt. This is not an illegal pitch by ASA pitching rules. We would also add, it is not possible to push, drag, stop and re-push while the non-pivot foot is in the air. It is possible to re-push if you leap and land.

From the ASA rule book (Rules Supplement):

Much attention and discussion has been given to recognizing
the differences between the crow hop and the leap on the pitching delivery:

1. A CROW HOP is defined as a replant of the pivot foot prior to
delivering the pitch. This can be done by (1) sliding the foot in
front, but not in contact with, the pitcher's plate; (2) lifting the pivot
foot and stepping forward; or (3) jumping forward from the pitcher's
plate with the pivot foot prior to starting the pitch. Umpires should
look at the location of the pivot foot when the hands separate, the
start of the pitch. If the pivot foot is off and in front of the pitcher's
plate before the hands separate, this would be a crow hop and
an illegal pitch should be called.

2. A LEAP occurs when both of the pitcher's feet become airborne
on the initial move as the pitcher pushes from the pitcher's plate.
In the WOMEN'S and YOUTH Fast Pitch divisions the pivot foot
must stay in contact with the ground following the push off from the
pitcher's plate (*If a hole has been created, the pivot foot maydrag
no higher than the level plane of the ground.)

Bretman ... Always love the responses and clarifications! We just need "Blue" to make the call.

 

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I agree with Louuuu....and I will take all your flak for agreeing and saying what I feel. The rules are in place, the umpires know what they are, and if they are not calling it then there must not be an infraction!!! I think an umpire who gets **** about a "leap" being called should be as upset as when they get flak on their "Strike Zone." Adjust to it coach and quit making excuses for your teams inefficiencies!!!

I think it is total BS for a coach to go to an umpire and complain about a "leap"!!! I rank it right up there with coaches who stall to win games!!! If your team cant hit the pitcher its not because they are leaping!!! I would lay $$$ down that they struggle with pitchers that don't "Leap"

Now a "Crow Hop" is a different story and is very easy to call and enforce. Anyone can see a pitcher pick up there pivot foot off the rubber and step before striding. This is a slight advantage as it allows the pitcher to be closer to the plate when the ball is released. But again I don't complain about it...as my job is to coach "My" kids not bellyache about what other players are being taught!!!

 

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I'm okay with coaches calmly mentioning to the umpire they think the pitcher is violating pitching rule(s). Beyond that, I agree with LK that they need to let it go and not let it distract them or their team from playing the game. One trait of successful coaches is not letting a bad call or play interfere with their team's focus.

 

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I'm okay with coaches calmly mentioning to the umpire they think the pitcher is violating pitching rule(s). Beyond that, I agree with LK that they need to let it go and not let it distract them or their team from playing the game. One trait of successful coaches is not letting a bad call or play interfere with their team's focus.

I had this in a rec game recently. I quietly asked the ump to watch the opposing pitcher and to only mention it to the coach and player if it was indeed illegal. I also asked that it not be called as an illegal pitch in our game if possible, but to make sure the young lady is indeed pitching legally so that when tournament time came she would not have a bad habit that may get called when it really mattered. I was not concerned with an advantage, but looked at it like it was my kid, I want to know so we can fix it. Mine sometimes "leaps" due to her violent explosion to get more power from her small size and has had coaches loudly protest. She has since learned to correct it and rarely lapses. We had a team at 10u last year loudly protest to get in her head, I say that because they were very loud and demonstrative as she was pitching,....she responded by making the legal adjustment and throwing a 5 inning perfect game against them....her only one in travel ball.

 

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My 9yr old was called for this about 6 times in 3 games a week and a half ago. I had no problem with the call. She actually throws better when she is leagal. She sometimes goes up instead of out. We work the card board drag drill alot so she knows and can feel the difference. My only issues are when an opposing coach complains about it to get in her head and when the call doesn't go both ways. Grown men messing with 9/10 year olds for an advantage is embarrassing! And if an ump is going to call it they should get them all! In 2 of those 3 games the other pitchers were also leaping from time to time with no calls. It's like the strike zone - it may not be the same for all umps but it should be the same for both teams in the game!

 

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Girls need to be taught to do it properly, and if they're being illegal in the game, it should be pointed out and corrected for her own good. It's almost impossible to catch when there's only one umpire, and I'd also argue that some base umpires seem to forget that they're supposed to be watching for it because I will watch them and see where they're looking on the pitch. But if I see it on an opposing pitcher, I am going to quietly mention it to the umpire (usually between innings), but not say it out loud and thereby either get in her head or cause a scene.

 

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I am both a travel coach as well as a sanctioned umpire. As a general rule. We watch for stuff like this. When your batters are "time the pitcher, time time the pitcher", we are looking for pitcher's tendencies. As an umpire I call every illegal pitch. When is it illegal to drink & drive, only when you get caught or every time. Rules are not made to be broken...rules are made to ensure all teams & players compete on a level playing field. So that is the umpire's perspective.

As a coach....I make it a point to be 100% sure our pitchers are always pitching legally 100% of the time. Here's how this conversation goes....I see an opposing pitcher show a tendency to replant or crow-hop...
"Blue....watch her back foot please....seems like a crow hop to me".
Blue, "Coach if I am going to call that i will watch yours too."
Me "Please do...if mine are pitching illegally I want it called on them, to teach them to stop it." End of story.
If you live in a glass house, you better be cautious about throwing these stones. If your house is secure, fire away.

Remember...those habits are harder to break the older they get. Fix it while they are young....before you get to nationals & lose a 6-5 contest with a crow-hop at 14U.

 

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Only been called 2-4 times in the my years... no spike in calls after "they said a crack down was coming"... which I actually prefer because it is one of the most liberal calls to overlook IMO. That and obstruction/interference (different topic).

Now I've read pretty much all of these posts and like a horoscope I can agree with most depending upon how your typed words resonated in my pea brain...

Question, actually several, is/are: if you are sanctioned as an ASA umpire, following the book... and you've chosen to let the other team not abide by the leap/crow hop/ illegal pitch... and that is a choice by the other team to let it occur and the ump to let it go... I get to pick and chose which rule I shall bend or use to my advantage. My choice is to have one of any in this list:
1) ITB style start of every inning for us only or
2) any of my top hitters hit every inning or
3) 4 strikes and foul balls count as strikes or
4) 2 strikes you are out on your team when we are pitching...

This could turn into a fun thread. Point is... their are rules, enforce them. Thank you. Let us coach when they don't abide. No sympathy strike zones because the score is lop-sided. Run rule also takes care of that. And if the coaches don't pull the plug or call off the dogs... the losing team should be able to treat them to the Full Metal Jacket if catch my drift!!!

 

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Two years ago at Stingrays saw an umpire call like a dozen in 2 innings in an 18u game. It got so bad they had to call the UIC down. The umpire saw the UIC and chilled out then as soon as they left had about another 8 called in an inning. I felt bad for both teams and pitchers.

 

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Two years ago at Stingrays saw an umpire call like a dozen in 2 innings in an 18u game. It got so bad they had to call the UIC down. The umpire saw the UIC and chilled out then as soon as they left had about another 8 called in an inning. I felt bad for both teams and pitchers.

Were they illegal pitches or not? It's only a problem if they were actually legal. There's really no excuse for experienced TB pitchers to not be able to pitch legally.

 

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Exactly. There is no excuse for an experienced 18u pitcher to REPEATEDLY pitch illegally. At most, maybe one every two or three games, but a DOZEN in 2 innings?? Honestly, that is simply someone who hasn't learned to pitch!! Maybe there should be a rule stating that after so many illegal pitch calls in a game, the player must be removed for flagrant rules violation. It's no different than a batter who constantly ignores the umpire and steps completely out of the batter's box after every pitch.

 

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Saw one summer game where the base umpire called illegal for a leap/crow hop and the head coach and plate umpire helped the girl build a mound of dirt four inches above the rubber so it looked like she was dragging.
have seen it rarely called, which is a shame because the umpires are doing the pitchers a disservice. Know a pitcher that went through HS and summer ball and was never called illegal for her leap/crow hop... got to college and every pitch she threw was called illegal... ended up having to give up pitching because she couldn't retrain herself by then.

 

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Maybe off topic a bit or possibly already touched on, but what about the "quick pitch" rule? A pitcher was called out on this and the umpire told the head coach the signal cannot be given until the pitcher was on the rubber. Once the pitcher was on the rubber, the catcher can give the pitcher the signal. In a game the next day, another pitcher was taking signals before stepping foot into the circle. This time (different ump) said as long as the batter is in the box and makes eye contact with the pitcher and the batter's bat is up (?), there is no "quick pitch" rule infraction. What does the rule state?

 

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Maybe off topic a bit or possibly already touched on, but what about the "quick pitch" rule? A pitcher was called out on this and the umpire told the head coach the signal cannot be given until the pitcher was on the rubber. Once the pitcher was on the rubber, the catcher can give the pitcher the signal. In a game the next day, another pitcher was taking signals before stepping foot into the circle. This time (different ump) said as long as the batter is in the box and makes eye contact with the pitcher and the batter's bat is up (?), there is no "quick pitch" rule infraction. What does the rule state?

The signal can be given and taken on or off the pitching rubber, at any time, from anyone. Secondly, "eye contact" seriously? Where do these umpires come up with this stuff?

NFHS rule, other sanctions are similar:

Prior to starting the delivery (pitch), the pitcher shall take a position
with the pivot foot on or partially on the top surface of the pitcher?s plate and
the non-pivot foot in contact with or behind the pitcher?s plate. Both feet must be
on the ground within or partially within the 24-inch length of the pitcher?s plate.
a. Prior to pitching, the pitcher must take a position with shoulders in line
with first and third base with the ball in the glove or pitching hand, and with
the hands separated.
b. While in this position, the pitcher shall take (or simulate taking) a signal
from the catcher.
c. After completing ?b? above, the pitcher shall bring the hands together in
front of the body for not less than one second and not more than 10 seconds
before releasing the ball. The hands may be motionless or moving.
d. The pitcher shall not be considered to be in pitching position unless the catcher
is within the lines of the catcher?s box and in position to receive the pitch.
e. The pitcher may not take the pitching position on or near the pitcher?s plate
without having possession of the ball.
f. The pitcher may remove herself from the pitching position as follows:
1. before the hands come together, the pitcher may legally step back from
the pitcher?s plate with both feet;
2. when the hands are together and no part of the windup motion has
been made, the pitcher may legally step back from the pitcher?s plate
with both feet;
3. either foot may be removed first.

 

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Thanks, 000206..... so is there even such a thing as a "quick pitch" rule??? This was at an NSA tourney this weekend.

 

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Yes, there is such a rule ... as per "b" above, after the pitcher is on the rubber, she must take or simulate the taking of a signal from the catcher. If she steps on the rubber and immediately pitches without having done this, that is essentially what a quick pitch is. It's basically letting the batter know she is about to pitch.

 

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Thanks coachjwb. I was under the impression there was such a rule. Too bad the second ump didn't seem to agree.

 

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Thanks coachjwb. I was under the impression there was such a rule. Too bad the second ump didn't seem to agree.

Engaging the pitcher's plate and taking the signal without the hands separated and a quick pitch are actually two different rules with two different penalties.

As posted above, the pitcher must pause and take, or simulate taking, her signal once on the plate. The hands must be separated when doing this. So, if pitcher steps onto the plate with her hands already together, or immediately joins them and then pauses to get her signal, you might not have a quick pitch, but you do have a rule violation and it is an illegal pitch.

A quick pitch is when the pitcher pitches before the batter is set and ready. A quick pitch might still be committed even if the pitcher paused for the signal with the hands apart. The batter has 10 seconds to take her position in the box. If the batter isn't ready, then the umpire should not allow the pitcher to pitch.

Unlike the hands separated/taking the signal violation, which is an illegal pitch where the ball remains live and may still be batted into play, a quick pitch is an immediate dead ball and a "no pitch".