Hitting and Hitters Discussion Girls Fastpitch Softball Hitting

[Admin]

As often happens when I post, I think what I put down is actually a good explanation of my thoughts, but it really isn't. I am an advocate of using whatever tools are available, and have used a video camera to help show my girls things they need to work on. I am sure the Right View is a great tool, and would love to have one. What I was trying to point out is that in attempting to help players, a coach or hitting instructor comes up with a drill, phraseology, that is really aimed at helping a player's with a particular problem. It gets picked up by others and pretty soon, it is thought of as great wisdom. Maybe a better example of this is the step vs. no step debate. There is nothing inherently right or wrong about either method. Either way can work. You can watch successful baseball players that have all different kinds of strides, and even some that if most of us saw our DD's doing might cause us to have a coronary on the spot. Some of those stances, strides etc are used to help a player overcome a certain problem. The same applies to softball hitting, there are phrases and teaching techniques that should only be used in situations where it is appropriate, but unfortunately have been applied across the board.

 

[Admin]

To all, I believe that the technique that you teach a player to hit with must fit the philosophy of the player at the plate. I'm not sure yet that there is much difference between rotational and linear hitting. I think this is true, there are push hitters and there are pull hitters. Most baseball players that hit off of a firm front side with little or no weight on their back foot are more push than pull. It is the opposite with more weight on back foot, they tend to be more pull hitters. Then there are the great hitters that are push and pull. What I want to find out is First, is it possible to read the type of pitch & location off of a great softball pitcher ( whatever the age ) ? Second, and I know this is very subjective , What pitch gives hitters at the highest level the most difficulty? To build a swing that fits these two questions is a great place to start. In baseball I know it is possible to read pitches, I'm not so sure in softball. If you can't read pitches in softball and your just hitting velocity and location then one technique is better than the other. If you can read pitches then rotational hitting along with staying inside the ball makes the most sense. I have more thoughts on hitting I would like to discuss *but we'll save them for A later date. Thanks

 

[Admin]

I think you are being tooliteral with the term 'squash the bug.' I think it has been adopted to provide an illustration of motion that young girls can relate to. I use the term, but do not mean for them to bear down intensely with their rear foot and bury the bug in the ground! I have watched as girl's load up or cock their bat -- if the pitcher is slower and consistent then they can tank it, BUT if they are faster and able to move their pitches -- they strike out most of the time. No doubt rotational form is necessary -- you must rotate power in order to follow through and drive that ball. Women have more power in their hips -- think about it -- it comes naturally and they must be used. I believe that is the key differ. between baseball and softball swings -- females must use hips as a priority and men can rely on arms but the rotation part is the same.

 

[Admin]

One of the instructors at Pronio Sports is using the Right View Pro he has had it a short time but has had great success with it. *I saw him use it with my daughter tonight she went from weak grounders to line drives. This was her third lesson, this past weekend she hit a double to the fence and a Home run 200 feet (her first) I'm a believer in the program. *I *was amazed at the change in her swing, and the drills he showed her really changed her by the end of the lesson. *As soon as we where finished he work with a pitcher using the the same system.

 

[Admin]

I have to agree, about squishing the bug. *I too have told girls to squish the bug because telling them to hit off of a firm front and rotating the hips wasn't getting through to them. *My DD has a nice rotational swing and drives the ball hard, and when we soft toss, and I watch her back foot, while she rotates it appears that she is squishing a bug. *As I stated in my previous post, allot of the catch phrases are used to better explain what you want to happen, not to use as a final result. *It doesn't really matter what you call it, results are what matters. Its like when your teaching a girl to bunt, and you tell her to catch the ball with the bat. Naturally this is impossible, but it gives the player a visualization that she can use to help her understand what result were looking for.

 

[Admin]

Video of the world's best hitters

The danger of catch phrases like squish the bug, throw the knob of the bat at the ball, take a level swing or keep the rear elbow up is that they can be misinterpreted by the player being coached.If we tell a player to squish the bug, are we sure that the player is interpreting this cue correctly? Will the player then keep her weight on that back foot and use the turn of the foot to initiate hip rotation?

Or will the player instinctively understand that the turning of the back foot is a result of good hip rotation and not what drives it (cause vs. effect)?If our cues lead to the desired results, maybe we've gotten lucky. But if the cue is interpreted by the player in ways other than we intend, we are probably doing more harm than good.ZipsMom, that is a great post. Nothing succeeds like success and your daughters success is evident and measurable.

If her hitting instructor is basing his teachings on the RVP software, your daughter is indeed being taught to emulate the swings of the most elite hitters in the world, those in Major League baseball and NCAA softball.All elite hitters at these levels use a rotational approach. MLB hitters DO NOT use an arm dominated swing. The rotation is driven by the large muscles of the body's core and the arms are, essentially, just along for the ride, serving mainly as a means of connecting the hands/bat to the powerful rotational forces generated by the body.

The technology is available today for most anyone interested in learning more about hitting. Video of the world's best hitters is easily found on the internet. Levels of analysis are available that weren't possible just a few short years ago.My advice to anyone wanting to learn about hitting is to trust nothing anyone tells you. The tools are available to verify, or debunk, the many catch phrases and the faulty conventional wisdom that has muddled hitting instruction in fast pitch softball.Use the tools available, study on your own, see what works for the world's elite hitters. The video doesn't lie!

 

[TheSoftballZone]

I can not find a difference in swings other than the trajectory of the pitch. If you compare the great hitters in softball and baseball you see NO difference once they get to the meat of the swing.

 

[TheSoftballZone]

I taught rotational hitting for 17 years until I met Don Slaught, Sue Enquist and worked with Crystal Bustos and Mike Bastain.

This year we had 13 kids in the top 60 in the Cincy area and kids in every stat with the cities triples leader for girls and the doubles leader for boys. They had all converted from rotational to a linear weight shift or what we call a hip slide. Don Slaught video's are worth the investment and for $65 you can have Mike and Sue in your hands and decide for yourself.At the NFCA in Vegas Sue gave a great presentation on hitting and told us she talked to Dusty Baker who is credited with coining the phrase squisch the bug and he told her that was not what he meant to say or imply for the back foot to actually do however that is what took place. Because you are rotating from the front side the lead hip goes rearward and the back hip goes forward. When you slow the films down you can actually see the back foot lift off the ground for some players ie, Mike Sweeny and others look like the toe is dragging however it is going forward and the heel does not rotate backwards.

This for me is the main difference between rotation and linear. With the weight going forward you are stronger in your swing. Another main point is the front elbow leading and going up slightly not the shoulder pulling out. The demonstration of hitting in the Big Zone in the video is a great example of why you don't hit down on the ball, roll the wrist or slap the arm which is still being taught.

I have not met Leon however Don Slaught has endorsed him and that is good enough for me. I was also at Don's booth in Vegas and had a chance to talk with Michigan's head softball coach Carol. She was asking several people there what their thoughts were on Don's program and using the lead arm at an upward angle and could she do this at the start of the season? Leon worked with her and I think the rest is history...


Women's College World Series Champions Div.1.One other thought...When Sue Enquist gave her presentation at the NFCA and said, The rolling of the wrist and hitting down on the ball unless you are a slapper are over because this is power ball as indicated by the 51 to 1 runs scored in the Olympic games this year. After she said that about 40 to 45 people walked out...many of them were from the midwest! It is difficult at times to change peoples minds however for my kids the results speak louder than peoples opinions.

 

[TheSoftballZone]

So hitter, are you telling us that Candra/Enquist are not teaching rotational hitting? I think most would disagree. Depends I guess on how you define rotational.One big problem with hitting discussions is the many definitions that exist for commonly used terms. For those who want to learn more on their own here are a some additional web sites that delve deeper into theory and instruction. I've gleaned some good-stuff from all of them.

I think you have things reversed. Don't you mean you switched from Linear to Rotational? All of those people you mentioned teach rotational swing, I think you just typed it wrong.


I have heard so many great thing about the Right View program, I would like to get both my son and my daughter enrolled in lessons. We live in the Youngstown, Ohio area, I'm to the point that any distance is not too far!!! I saw the post about Pronios, what can anyone tell me about location, etc.

 

[TheSoftballZone]

At the NFCA in Vegas Sue gave a great presentation on hitting and told us she talked to Dusty Baker who is credited with coining the phrase squish the bug and he told her that was not what he meant to say or imply...

Perfect example of how a simple cue can be misinterpreted. If this phrase is confusing a professional baseball manager (who played 19 pretty darn good seasons in MLB) and a high-level college coach with national championship experience, can you imagine how it might be misinterpreted by the young players we teach Hitter, you seem to have it backwards. The sources you cite would best be described as rotational teachers, not linear.The hip slide you mention- is this a move made prior to the front foot landing (ie: as part of the stride or step taken during loading)?The terms rotational and linear have become increasingly muddled and thus increasingly meaningless as countless experts define and redefine the terms to suit their own teaching methods.

The latest material from Enquist and Candrea (RVP) describe the pre-swing stride or step as a linear move, thus adding more confusion to the rotational vs. linear debate. Another set of experts, another set of terms and definitions.In fact, this linear step or stride happens PRIOR to the front foot landing and PRIOR to the actual swing.The swing itself, launched AFTER the front foot lands and loading is complete is very much a rotational move.

The body should be rotating around a stationary axis, not one that is moving forward in a line.ProMinded has nailed it pretty good with his post. Stance, bat grip and stride or step all happen BEFORE the swing begins and can vary greatly from one hitter to the next. These are matters of individual style, not hard-and-fast mechanics to match.Viewed on video, from the point that the front foot lands and the swing is initiated, after you get past all the individual style, the swings of elite hitters are virtually identical for both softball and baseball.

 

[TheSoftballZone]

Rotation to me is when you can place a ball on the outside edge of the batters back foot heel and kick it / move it from the back foot going rearward. The weight goes to the back leg and the hitter looks like they are going backwards as they swing.The linear phase of the swing is moving forward or a positive move landing in a balanced position on the toe and then to heel plant and rotating from around the lead hip so the back foot toe is pointing down and the heel is up because your weight moved forward.I agree with everyone...there are a lot of good WEB sites that have their gurus and opinions on hitting.

Hitting to me is like art...some like the way it was done others have an opinion on what it represents and or the meaning the artist wanted to portray. The linear weight shift to rotation or loading against the inside of an angled back leg and allowing the hip to move forward at toe touch has increased the time in the big zone, more hits and home runs at least for the kids I've worked with since meeting Don.

 

[TheSoftballZone]

Hitter,Looking for a good instructor that uses the Right View program. It sounds as if you are familiar with the product and the results. I'm looking for someone in the Youngstown/Akron area. I heard of a person that has the professional version of the Right view program, but have not been able to find out where. He is in the Akron area or at least I was told. I have heard from 3 or 4 people that this program and many of the features really helps the learning process. If anyone could help direct me I would be very thankful!!!


Hitter sure likes to name drop and pat himself on the back. What is with the stats??

 

[TheSoftballZone]

Hitter, you reinforce my comment that there are different definitions for terms and it confuses everyone. Bretman says that better than I do....muddled! Your description of rotational and linear are not the definitions used by the mainstream. The back heel moving in place is usually referred to as spinning, and that does not lead to a good rotational swing.The terms rotational an linear were originally intended to describe the path of the HANDS, not the movement of the body and feet. As Bretman so eloquently put it, Candrea/Enquist describe an initial linear motion (stride), but that does not mean the hands are moving in a linear path during the swing! It's confusing I know...


Hitter, if you are who I think you are-Me and my girls will see you on Friday 9/23 between 3-4, before we head to the Indiana Chaos to do battle with the Shockwaves and Dreams. Bretman, I almost always agree with your posts, as you are very knowledgeable, but If hitter is who I think he is-he knows hitting inside and out!!! Not only does he know the technical side but he has such a charming personality that my girls can't wait to see him when we schedule!!! I mean he has a way to simplify things for the girls and he is the only instructor that I have ever let any of my 4 DD's go to.

Prominded The guy you are looking for is Glenn McCoy he works out of Proinio's in the Akron Ellet area. He has the Right Pro program and is now giving lessons using it.

 

[TheSoftballZone]

Look forward to seeing the girls again. How are they doing? PurpleJack...Call it spinning,squish the bug,turning on a dime etc; when the weight is on the back leg and you are collapsing, leaning backwards or the center of gravity is rearward that to me is rotation without a weight shift forward. I don't teach step,stop and rotate. Step and slide to rotation is what I use as a cue to get them to move the hips negative to positive.In my opinion linear is the weight shift and the hands are inside the ball and the bat-path is circular as can be traced on the RVP system. I have the Cv300,Is300,Ip300-AS and the Hitting With the Champions DVD's. It is indeed a great system and allows you to see the Pro's from baseball hit the same way some of the girls used in the Olympie's.ac...You may or may not know me but I'm proud of all our kids and the people who have helped me learn more about hitting and they deserve the credit for helping me, help the kids. Ask Blink44 what I charge my kids...ZERO! And no I don't have any more openings.

 

[TheSoftballZone]

Hitter, sounds like you may be able to answer a question for me. Is it possible to read the type of pitch and location @ the highest level of pitching (in whatever age group) in softball? The reason I ask is that I see far more fooled swings in softball -Vs- baseball. It seems that in softball your trying to read velocity rather than pitch, or read location rather than pitch. Thanks in advance MOE.

 

[TheSoftballZone]

I try to have the hitters not looking directly at the pitcher. I'd rather have them rest their eyes by looking off at an outfielders position. I use a cue learn how to dance with the pitcher and let her lead the dance. When she presents the ball the hitter goes negative or back or loads up or whatever term fits the occasion. The pitcher then goes back and comes up to the top of her arm circle, arc or again whatever someone chooses to call it and the hitter moves towards the pitcher or a positive move, step, stride,lift the foot up and put it back down or if a no strider they move the front foot to a forward 45 degree position so the weight can be shifted forward or what I term a hip slide. The timing in my opinion to move forward comes from the player knowledge of the pitchers release so the arm angle or circle being looked at like a clock face would indicate an 11 and 2 o'clock position seems to work well. I like to think a good pitcher wind up to release should take about1.8 to 2.0 seconds and the slower pitchers about 2.2 2.8 seconds. This is when we want to track the ball with both eyes. We also use the bat to line off the plate and have a 5 degree off set used. By putting your lead toe at the knob of the you set the distance away from the plate and spread the right foot even and then move the back foot 2 inches in toward the plate. For most players this gives them a good two eyed look at the ball. Some of the kids have picked up how they turn the wrist or if the pitcher moves left or right as to what pitches may be thrown. When the hitter learns to dance with the pitcher they seem to do better. I also encourage my kids to stand in the box while a pitcher is working to try and guess the pitch based on hand and body position. It affords the hitter more information about what a pitcher must do to throw a specific pitch. Some of my kids catch the pitchers during their pitching lessons to learn more about ball movement.Be assured someone will find fault with whatever is said but you asked and I tried to explain it.

 

[TheSoftballZone]

bretman and PurpleJack, you folks have a firm grip on rotational hitting techniques. If everybody had to use a heavy wooden bat then everybody would HAVE to use rotational mechanics. AstroTurf followed by aluminum bats was the main reason for the explosion of hand throwing linear hitting mechanics. Some folks found out that if you just made solid contact then you could get ground ball base hits through the infield on AstroTurf...think of the St. Louis Cardinals of the 80s. As aluminum bats became lighter and filled with more pop you could get base hits by just using your hands to make contact.Folks are finally realizing that with all of the pop in these bats that more girls are capable of hitting the long ball by utilizing the effortless power that comes from rotational mechanics. Rotational mechanics uses physics (the law of angular momentum) to allow a player to use all of the power in their body instead of just using the hands and arms.Fastpitch was started by men who simply went from playing baseball to playing fast pitch...they didn't decide to use a different hitting technique, they just played the way they always played.If you stay inside the ball (keep your hands connected to the body) and rotate around the front hip you can generate tremendous power. Watch the great power hitters in MLB and they all use rotational mechanics. Adam Dunn almost breaks his front ankle as he rolls over it because of the force of his rotating body. I believe it was Barry Bond's 700th HR that after the swing, his back foot was on home plate...because he rotated and didn't have his weight on his back foot. Babe Ruth's back foot was always flying around because he rotated the weight off of it. Guys like Williams, Aaron, Mayes, Musial et al weighed only 180 pounds or so (some lighter) yet they hit many monstrous 500+ foot HRs because of the power that comes from the rotational swing.Good discussion folks!

 

[TheSoftballZone]

Extreme example of the back foot coming up on a rotational swing...Remember Kirk Gibson's gimpy knee'd World Series homer for the Dodgers from way back when? Keep your eyes open for the video- they replay it a few dozen times during the course of every baseball season.Gibson's back foot is entirely off the ground when he makes contact.Hitter, it sounds like you and I are describing pretty much the same hitting technique, especially if you are using the RVP software.Where many people get tripped-up is on the terminology. Every hitting instructor will have their own terms and definitions, as well as their own cues and methods to get their students to achieve their goals. Two different teachers can use totally different terms to describe the same desired mechanics to their students.I'll still stick to my contention that what is used by the world's elite hitters, and what is taught by the RVP software, would most conventionally be termed as rotational technique. From swing launch to contact the hands are traveling in a circular path and the body is rotating around an axis.While the pre-launch stride, step or, as you call it dance with the pitcher has some linear component, with the body moving forward prior to planting the front foot and initiating the swing, this linear movement does not involve the hand path and, in fact, once the swing begins the forces generated are entirely from rotating. Once the actual swing begins, any linear movement is virtually eliminated.Same mechanics being described, different terminology being used. This is always a source of confusion in hitting instruction.

 

[TheSoftballZone]

I basically agree however the tag put to rotational mechanics is step,stride and stop and then start the hands. Using RVP it allowed me to see in slow motion how the hips continue to move forward (linear) into rotation off the lead hip keeping the momentum going to get maximum power. When I see the heel of the backfoot tilting backwards and not up this to me was rotation without a linear movement and in my opinion less power applied to the ball.The way I show hand path is by using a tennis ball with about 18 inches of a rolled up rag stuffed and glued inside it. I then put the ball over my shoulder and holding the rag end with the lead hand, I start the rag moving forward using my lead arm elbow to start the movement, then the hand and hit a five gallon bucket about two feet off the ground. I stop my hand to what would basically be the inside of the ball and allow the ball to follow a circular path to hit the bucket. I then repeat it allowing my shoulder to start first and you can't hit the bucket.Don says to release the bat to the ball and I agree but this is set up to try and get them not to pull with the shoulder but to lead with the elbow inside the path to the ball.

 

[TheSoftballZone]

Bink44,Nobody said Hitter wasn't knowledgeable. Most of us agree however that he is just crossing up his lingo. All of the instructors he refers to and the RVP system all train people to use the rotational style swing. My guess is he just latched on to the term linear one day and stuck with it. I will agree with you it is much more important what you do and teach than what you call it. It just might confuse players if they ever go to another hitting coach or clinic.