Hitting and Hitters Discussion Girls Fastpitch Softball Hitting

[TheSoftballZone]

hitter, are you saying that rotational hitting is a step, stride, stop, and then hands? If so, this is not what Epstien teaches and he is the guy that took Williams' technique (with Williams' input) and came up with the phrase rotational hitting. The old timers didn't call it rotational they called it hitting.Epstien teaches a wide stance and you pick up the front heel and drop it. This triggers the front elbow to go up while simultaneously triggering the hips to release. The hips lead the hands and once the hips go, they will pull the hands through as the body rotates. The back elbow is slotted (down and close to the body) and the hands stay inside the ball (connected to the body). The arms are still bent and the bat head is slightly behind the hands at contact (the hands and arms haven't released yet). The hands and arms release after contact. This is typical in a great golf swing as well. If you can get your hands on a copy of June 2004 Golf Digest there is a mention of this on page 111.

 

[TheSoftballZone]

rotation of the shoulders

Food for thought...

The elbow positions you describe- front elbow up, back elbow slotting- is sometimes described as weather vanning. You may have heard this term.

I can't remember if Epstein uses it, or maybe one of the other hitting gurus.But is this elbow positioning a cause or effect? Is the swing plane made to match the pitched ball path by this weather vanning technique (cause)?Or, is the elbow position we see the result of other mechanics used during the swing (effect)?

There is documentation and theory that this elbow positioning is the result of other actions.


The theory goes something like this:1) Swing plane should closely match pitch plane.2)

The rotation of the shoulders during the swing should be perpendicular to the axis of the spine.3) For items #1 and #2 above to happen, there must be a pronounced backwards pelvic tilt by the hitter. By tilting the pelvis, the shoulder rotation can be BOTH perpendicular to the axis of rotation AND slightly upward to match the pitch plane.The degree of backwards pelvic tilt is greater for lower pitches, less so for higher ones.4)

It is the backward pelvic tilt that causes the front elbow to APPEAR to be going up, and the rear elbow to APPEAR to be slotting close to the rib cage.5) The elbow position described is an EFFECT of this pelvic tilt to get on plane with the pitch and not the CAUSE that makes this planar adjustment.Try this for yourself. Stand in your normal hitting stance, then tilt your pelvis so that your torso goes backwards.

You should see that the elbows will roughly get into the position described- front elbow up, rear elbow slotted.I hope that makes sense. Again, this is the theory of some hitting instructors and differs somewhat from Epstein's material.One absolute KILLER to a quick swing is if the rear elbow gets ahead of the hands. This can be a problem if the hitter is consciously trying to get that rear elbow in tight against the rib cage. This will create what some instructors refere to as bat drag.The resulting drag might actually produce a small increase in maximum bat speed, but will absolutely reduce bat quickness- the time it takes to get the bat from loaded position to contact.While the younger girls might be able to get away with this- and a host of other hitting flaws- as they progress and face tougher pitching, this reduction in bat quickness can be a fatal flaw.

In conjunction with the pelvic tilt to set swing plane I described above, here is another way to describe the elbow positions to get maximum bat quickness.Think of a four cornered box being formed by these four points: the batter's front elbow, the batter's hands and each of her shoulders.During the load and swing, try to maintain this box without collapsing it. You'll find that the elbow position will be very close to what Epstein describes, but this technique will eliminate the swing-killing bat drag that can happen when the rear elbow gets in front of the hands.But then again, that's all just one guys opinion! ;DWatch as much video as possible of the world's best hitters and I think that you will see many of these concepts for yourself.

 

[TheSoftballZone]

The position I described is an EFFECT, however, I was lazy in my typing and didn't go into great detail. I was just kind of describing what it looks like as opposed to giving all of the details. Epstien teaches the hitter to sit on the back foot which I believe is what you are referring to when you talk about backwards pelvic tilt. He also talks about matching the plane of the pitch, so semantics may be the difference in what we are trying to discuss. In the golf article I mentioned earlier, they talk about spine-tilt thrust which may be the same thing you and Epstien are referring to...BTW, I'm not a golfer I just happened to be reading Golf Digest in a hospital waiting room and happened upon the article.


bcatfan...The rotation I've seen being taught to the girls and being described as rotational hitting is load up,step, stopping your forward movement and swing pushing the hands forward and not in a circular path. This does not allow your momentum or hips to go forward. I hope this clears it up.Up until you step/shift your weight there are any number of ways Pro's use to get ready to hit and after that they all look pretty much the same as seen on the RVP systems. Where the elbows are or the position of the bat prior to toe touch is style and there are many.I know who Epstein is and Bat speed .com.Cause and effect...heard that on Hitting Mechanics.com. Tell Mark H. I said hi.I admit I had a weak moment when I answered a post on this subject. Game,set,match you all win.

You make a good point about technique vs. style. Style is what happens before and after the swing and it can make hitters look completely different even though they use the same hitting technique.I saw a video that had Musial and Williams in split-screen and their swings looked very different. They were then made into stick figures, one blue and one red and in the split-screen they still looked completely different. Once the stick figures were laid over top of each other, you could see a red figure and a blue figure until they reached the universal Launch position in their respective swings and the figures lined up and made one purple stick figure. After contact the stick figures separated again and you saw a blue figure and a red figure.There are in-numeral styles, but the technique should be virtually the same.

 

[TheSoftballZone]

I don't want to argue but I will lol.The pre-swing of RVP is linear and it follows some of Charlie Lau Jr principle's, who BTW was A-rods Hitting instructor when he first came up in 94/95. His father Charlie Lau Sr was George Bretts lifelong hitting instructor. There is a book that Lau Jr wrote about 3 years ago, that is really good, and he defends his fathers Linear methods (which were slammed by the mainstream in the 70's) which show that most of today's great hitters use a combination of this method. Now on the other side, one of the greatest hitters of all time, Theodore Williams, was strictly a rotational hitter and that's why our baseball history of the 40's has a term called the Ted Williams Shift for pull hitters. This strictly rotational method is what my generation was taught and over the years I have went away from. But as Hitter said when your a rotational hitter, you leave a lot of power on that back foot, plus your front shoulder tends to pull out and lead instead of your front elbow, thus decreasing how long the sweet part of the bat stays in the hitting zone-plate coverage to all fields. With this being said, I don't believe a strictly rotational hitter can handle what all the California (from the Corona Angels to the Lakewood Ladies) teams pitch, which is low and outside corner, low and outside corner and low and outside corner!!! Now before you rip me, I know they will bust you in on your hands every once and awhile to keep you honest. lol. It's just I believe in the same principles as Hitter does- I guess that's a part of why we get along! After rereading my post I do seem a little brash, and that's not my intention, as those who know me and DD's know that's the furthest thing from our family, but I'm not a good writer and I'm too lazy to edit. lol.

 

[TheSoftballZone]

With Bink44's last post this brings another thing to my mind when it comes to hitting and watching professional BB as well as fastpitch softball. Great pitching will beat great hitting most of the time. If you take a pitcher, as Bink has referred to in his previous post, that throws low and away, its not going to matter what style of hitting you are using, its going to be extremely hard to lift and drive that low outside pitch. I would say nearly every long home-run in BB as well as SB was a mistake pitch. On the BB replay you will hear nearly every-time the announcer saying he hung a curve-ball out over the plate, or his sinker didn't sink, or hear during the college world series that so and so caught up with that rise-ball. How many times have you seen these great hitters swing foolishly at low outside pitches.From my personal experiences with my daughter as well as the girls I coach most of their power shots came off of mistake pitches. With this being said, if more people focused on the mental aspect of hitting as opposed to the pelvic tilt, squashing the bug, load or preload, hands in, hands out, slotted, wheathervaning, linear vs rotational or whatever you want to call it, I believe allot of these girls would be more successful.Do most of you realize that your at bat starts when you step into the on deck circle not into the batters box. Mental preparation when it comes to hitting can be as important if not more than the physical aspect. How many girls become better hitters with two strikes than with no strikes??How many coaches have confidence in their batters with two strikes??

I've seen first hand, girls that have confidence to hit with two strikes are better hitters. Why? Most pitchers and coaches that get ahead with two strikes will go for the strikeout resulting in mistake pitches. Nobody wants to walk a batter, so they go for the strikeout and oops there it goes.There has been so much talk on this thread about this style or that phrase, but I believe most of us all are teaching our girls relatively the same thing when it boils right down to it.So how do you hitting experts handle the mental aspects of hitting?

 

[TheSoftballZone]

Ted Williams wasn't the first rotational hitter. Shoeless Joe and the Babe were rotational hitters even though they didn't know it. LOL

95% of all of the position players in the MLB HOF are rotational hitters. I'm not sure about the comment about the length of time the sweet spot is in the hitting zone, but one of the main points of rotational hitting is that you match the plane of the swing to the plane of the pitch which maximizes the time that the bat is in the hitting zone.

The weak spot for rotational hitters is the high pitch which does make the hitter susceptible to the rise ball, but the good hitter should learn to identify the rise ball and lay off of it because rarely is the rise-ball a strike. The low pitch is the perfect pitch for the rotational hitter to hit.Ted Williams always said, Get a good pitch to hit. Mike Epstien, a Williams disciple, put out a book last October about the mental game of hitting and how to out-think the pitcher (I haven't got a copy yet). You can have the greatest swing in the history of baseball/softball, but if you are guessing at the plate you won't reach your potential as a hitter.

The perfect swing occurs only when the hitter gets the pitch they expect, at the speed the expect, in the location they expect. Too many coaches send their hitters to the plate with 2 strikes on them by telling them to look away, react in. You are in effect telling the hitter to look for 2 pitches on 1 swing and that greatly reduces their chance of having the perfect swing. The hitter should be going to the plate sitting on a particular pitch...and I hope all of our opponents keep taking a pitch until they get a strike.

 

[TheSoftballZone]

Lady_knights, you are absolutely right about the mental game, especially the part about your AB starts the moment you step in the on-deck circle. Have you been reading the the Softball Coaching Bible-chapter on mental preparation? lol. If not, you are right in line with one of the best mental preparation chapters I've ever read! Anyway you can get lift and distance from a pitch 6 high and 3 outside the strike zone. Perfect example is DD #2 out of 4, a notorious rotational hitter in the past. By the time Hitter is done with all our drills she is consistently ripping (6 high & 3 outside) soft-toss into the marked section of net! It's also shown in games as KO's have become minimal. Again before I get ripped LOL, I'm aware that most travel girls can rip line drive after line drive on soft toss, but just with my experience with my girls I've never seen them handle this pitch (low&outside) with such authority up the middle. Hitter, I'm going to give you a call this evening, with all this talk on hitting, a couple of questions are eating at me!

 

[TheSoftballZone]

Yes, the mental approach a hitter takes to the plate is an important aspect of the overall hitting picture.I tend to think of that as another aspect of what can make a hitter successful. The physical approach (mechanics) and the mental approach are two sides of the same coin.Every hitter should have a game plan as they come to the plate. This plan can be affected by many variables: what is the pitcher throwing and how is she throwing it, what is the game situation, what pitches has the hitter been successful with on previous at bats. As the at-bat unfolds, the hitter's strategy can change based on what she has seen and what pitch count she is facing.The successful hitter will thrive on mistakes by the pitcher. But, if her mechanics are poor, what are her chances of being successful against even these mistake pitches, let alone the tough pitches she sees during an at-bat?We do tend to get technical when discussing swing mechanics and terminology. Just because we do, we aren't saying that mechanics alone are the end-all and be-all for a successful hitter. The mental approach is a vital part of the picture and without it the hitter greatly reduces her chances of success.The two (mental/physical) go hand-in-hand. However, without a mechanically sound, fundamental swing, even the best laid game plan will be of little use.

 

[TheSoftballZone]

I am surprised and ashamed (at myself) that we have 3 pages talking about hitting and the third and perhaps most important factor in hitting hasn't been brought up. Like the fire triangle that needs fuel, oxygen and an ignition source, in hitting you need proper mechanics (which is always discussed first), the right mental approach (which we just started bringing up) and the God-given ability to put the bat on the ball. Hand-eye coordination is perhaps the most important part because you are born with it and while you can work to improve it, you will not improve it very much...you either have it or you don't. I've always thought of it like the football player with 5.0 speed in the 40 yard dash. You can work and diet and train and you may get that 40 time down to 4.8, but you will never be a 4.5 40 guy...you either have it or you don't.Barry Bonds has all three. I don't care much for Bonds the person, but I'm a big fan of Bonds the hitter. He has the time-tested rotational mechanics down pat, he has one of the best eyes the game has ever seen and he can put the bat on the ball. Whether or not he takes (or has taken) steroids doesn't matter. IMO, the available evidence points to the possibility that he has used performance enhancing products, but to me that just means that the balls that land in McCovey Cove would only land 30 rows into the bleachers. Bonds has the swing, the hand-eye coordination and the discipline to only swing at strikes.BTW, I believe there is room in this game for slapper/bunters, linear hitters and rotational hitters. If you are a linear hitter and hit for a high average don't change. The game needs base-runners and it needs the big swinging rotational hitters for run production. Do what fits you best.

 

[TheSoftballZone]

Regardless of who's pitching, where the pitch is, what the speed of the pitch is, the goal on every swing is to be in the optimal position to most effectively strike the ball as hard as possible -- it's all about increasing probability factors for success, not guaranteeing success I think Lewis & Clark went on a straighter path to the West Coast three centuries ago than some of the descriptions of swings above.And yes, T. Williams had a tremendously linear path into his swing

 

[TheSoftballZone]

I think that fastpitch is going to become a long ball game as much as a small ball game and there is going to allot more home runs in the next years. Ask Michigan's head coach how many home runs they hit in 2005.

 

[TheSoftballZone]

How did Michigan win the national championship game -- A home run by frosh Samantha Findley from Lockport, Ill.I mention the hometown simply because the most overlooked aspect of Michigan's national title in the sport of softball was that it was achieved by a group of girls primarily from the Midwest -- pitcher Jennie Ritter is from the Ann Arbor suburb of Dexter. Stephanie Bercaw, an outfielder, is from near Wooster.Also, Michigan's coaching staff had a ton to do with maximizing the talent on hand -- the pitching coach has done a tremendous job developing Ritter, who was beaten around at 18 Under Gold her senior summer in the two games I saw, and Brundage has done a great job with the entire hitting brigade.

 

[TheSoftballZone]

Ted Williams is a prime example- and was Mike Epstein's mentor- of what is commonly called a rotational swing.Michigan won the NCAA championship with hitting skills honed by RVP software, which demonstrates what is commonly called a rotational swing.Let's toss out the terms rotational and linear for a minute. If anyone can find video of a Major League batter whose hands go in a straight line to the ball (the common cue for a linear swing) I would love to see it.To a man, the hands will go in a circular path (rotational)- unless the hitter was badly fooled and is trying to salvage a poor swing.But that's just my observation and opinion. Don't take anyone's word as gospel truth. Look, see, study for yourself. What mechanics are employed by the world's elite hitters? There is ample video out there for anyone wishing to see it for themselves.And, yes, this thread has gotten technical about hitting mechanics. Sure, there are other aspects to being a good hitter. But look at the original post in this thread. The poster's question is about swing mechanics!By the way...thoroughly enjoying the topic and discussion. This has to be one of the longest hitting threads I've seen on OFC for a long time.

 

[TheSoftballZone]

So T. Williams didn't move his hands forward at all. He just sat still and rotated into and through his swing. OK.....got it.The RVP system is good, but it is only as good as the person interpreting the information that is rendered.Michigan coaches still rely on.......Michigan coaches' coaching skills. The RVP system simply expands their ability to teach, as it is with any other credible hitting instructor.An idiot interpreting the visual information will give you just what you paid for.

 

[TheSoftballZone]

Just e-mail Carol Hutchins Michigan's head coach and ask her about rvp or call Leon woods and ask what success he has had. Also in the world series Lisa Fernandez said Michigan better start playing small ball or they are going to lose the game then Michigan hit a 3 run homer and Lisa said nothing..

 

[TheSoftballZone]

I've already talked to UM (Brundage) -- the fact that they have some incredibly talented hitters (Merchant, Findlay, etc.) and they are incredible coaches wouldn't have anything to do with their success, would it?How would Leon have success -- he's a nice guy, but what team does he coach? My point -- RVP is a great tool -- it's not an instructor

 

[TheSoftballZone]

By the girls he is teaching!!!And just call Leon he will tell you!!!! get it done!!!

 

[TheSoftballZone]

BigTrain, you are missing my point. Admittedly, my point is probably buried somewhere back on page two or three with a few dozen posts being added since I made it! The terms rotational and linear have become increasingly blurred over the years. Ted Williams, if he were to be pigeonholed into either category would best fit what is conventionally called rotational.Sure, there is some straight line motion involved, but when the rubber hits the road- or, should I say, when the bat hits the ball?- Williams demonstrates, and advocates in his book, the following techniques, all of which are considered benchmarks of rotational hitting:- When the swing is launched, the body is rotating about a fixed axis. Remember, this is AFTER the pre-launch loading and stride occur.- Through the contact zone, the hands are traveling in a roughly circular path, which generates more bat speed than if the hands are moved in a straight line through contact. This is proven in physics by the conservation of angular momentum law.- The bat head traces out a circular path through the hitting zone.We can call it anything we like. Sometimes the terminology just confuses the issue, but video doesn't lie. Find some of Williams hitting and you will see each of these points in evidence.As for Michigan (with this being the Ohio Fastpitch Connection, maybe we should just say that team up north) if they are using the RVP software it goes without saying that they are using predominantly rotational techniques.One of the great features of this software is that it comes pre-loaded with video of the world's elite hitters. What makes it a useful tool is that it allows the users to compare, frame-by-frame, the swings of their own players side-by-side with the world's best.This ability is what separates RVP from other motion analaysis tools on the market (and also a contributor to its higher cost, with MLB licensing fees involved).And, if the team up north is using this tool as intended, they are teaching their players rotational hitting, no matter what terms they are using to describe it.PS: Cool username, BigTrain. Are you a Walter Johnson fan?

 

[TheSoftballZone]

BigtrainI feel you really hit the nail on the head!!!!I was finally able to find the instructor that uses the Right View Pro. Our first lesson Coach McCoy watched both of my daughters swing a few times, what I thought was a couple of pretty good swings, he VERY KINDLY showed us a number of phases the could use some improvement! I almost started to argue a few of the points; I felt he was full of it. But he clearly explained each and every point to my girls and me. He actually made sense! He then captured their swings with the Right View Pro which confirmed everything he mentioned. My girls’ swings have been compared to Freed, Jung, Nuveman and 4-5 MLB players using the Right View Pro.What we have seen, are some great advances in their swings and poise. They are playing fall ball and the improvement has been overwhelming!!! My oldest daughter 13, for the first time in her short career, hit the fence and the next time up hit one over (about 215' 220') to me it traveled 400'! With my youngest daughter, I've noticed more power and the ability to stay back on the Change-up plus she seems to hit the outside pitch a whole lot better. I have to agree with Bigtrain, the Right View Pro is a fantastic piece of equipment but what makes it so much better is the instructor. I had my doubts, I heard about this instructor from other parents from my daughters' teams, he has help to develop some pretty good, if not great players. We checked him out before we contacted him and have been very pleased with the results!

 

[TheSoftballZone]

Does any one know who is instructing with the RVP system in southwestern Ohio?