Hitting and Hitters Discussion Girls Hitting

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Hitting.
Arms and hands ahead of the rest of the body.
On the tee, my daughter will hit the ball hard. In a game, she will get a 2 strike count, and want to do good and 99% of the time makes contact, but only 1 in 4 is a connected power hit.
The rest I think mental and gets her upper body ahead of the hips.

I see alot of girls hit with too much upper body and too armsy. I think that is the number 1 problem with hitters. MHO

That has been the biggest challenge for me to have everything on time. I would even like to see her hips going a split second in front, but not causing bat drag.

Your thoughts or drills you think could get the player to stay connected.

thanks
Straightleg

 

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The "Hitting Lessons" thread got way off topic - hopefully for everyone's sake - especially the girls playing the game - this one will stay on course!

Steve Englishbey covers a lot of ground on how to correct this problem on his DVDs. I think it stems from several things. My son never really had the "leading elbow" problem, which I think may be rooted in a strength issue. However, my DD did struggle with that when she was young. If you look at MLB clips, you will notice how the forearm of the top hand (rearmost arm in the swing) stays pretty much vertical as the elbow tucks and follows the hip to the bat lag position. Freeze video of your DD at the bat lag position. The bat will be parallel to the ground and the forearm and bat should form a 90 degree angle (lined up with the seam on the pants, per Howard C.). This will show she's not leading with the elbow, or letting her hands get out ahead of rotation - classic disconnection problems.

There are some very knowledgeable folks on this forum that have studied this stuff a lot longer than me. For the sake of helping the girls, I think we should ALL put our egos in check and at least consider the information presented. It may not always be exactly what you believe in, but by being open minded you'd be surprised what you may learn.

 

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Sammy
I really do understand connection. I understand the back elbow and hand line up with the stripe of the pants.

If I film video and she is hitting off the tee and she is connected with the bat parallel to the ground, and her elbow is not ahead, and her hand is not a head.
OK

Game time. She fires her arms and hands in front of the hips.?

I see allot of girls do this.

Englishbey does a tilt over and rotate drill, everything being locked in Thinking about doing that one.

Then after that. Adding the step, seperation of hands then rotate. Classic rvp

Ifubuildit starts out slow. I think he does that for a reason.

There are so many ways to teach the same thing. I think finding a way to show a kid how to remember a certain piece of the puzzle, the part they struggle on, is what this forum should be about.



Straightleg

 

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Straightleg - So it sounds like she's doing all her mechanics pretty well when hitting off the tee, but when she's hitting live pitching, it all falls apart. IMO, hitting off a tee is a necessary part of learning and practicing swing mechanics, but it is a controlled environment. There's no pressure and stress like stepping in the batter's box against live pitching. This is more mental than physical - she KNOWS what she's supposed to do, it's just about building an ingrained habit.

I would suggest visiting a local vacant field, setting up your video camera, and throwing her some live pitches. Better yet, get one of your pitchers to throw to her. Don't throw meatballs down the middle - but rather throw her pitches she might get in a real game. Make her work for her hits. Mix up your pitches to make it challenging. You want to see how she approaches a low, outside or a high inside pitch, etc. that might be called a strike.

Is her swing getting ugly when she's pressured to hit live pitching? If so, get her back to basics - remind her that this is just an extension of tee work. Same approach, same swing. The only real difference is that she can also work on timing the pitcher. That's why I suggested a "real" pitcher (not that you aren't, LOL) so she would get a feel for the speed and timing.

Live pitching gets them out of their comfort zone. It's a great litmus test to see if what you're doing off the tee is paying off. But you must continue to use the tee as long as she's a softball player!

This is just something that worked for my kids. Someone else may have some helpful insight. Good luck with your season!

 

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[quote author=straightleg link=1211119541/0#2 date=1211127854]

If I film video and she is hitting off the tee and she is connected with the bat parallel to the ground and her elbow is not ahead, and her hand are is not a head. [highlight]Yep Have seen that too. [/highlight]

Game time. She fires her arms and hands in front of the hips.? [highlight]Yep See that all the time.[/highlight]

I see allot of girls do this. [highlight]Amen![/highlight]

Englishbey does a tilt over and rotate drill, everything being locked in ?Thinking about doing that one. [highlight]WGD - Worlds Greatest Drill. Very good correction for what your seeing from DD[/highlight].

Then after that. Adding the step, seperation of hands then rotate. Classic rvp

Ifubuildit starts out slow. I think he does that for a reason. [highlight]You are correct. I want my students to "Feel" from a muscular (Bio Mechanic / Kinetic Chain) perspective how their body moves in ways to create tension points in the muscles then unload those points through the swing to the ball. [/highlight]

There are so many ways to teach the same thing. I think finding a way to show a kid how to remember a certain piece of the puzzle, the part they struggle on, is what this forum should be about.



Straightleg[/quote ]
What your talking about is connection and as I told Sammy in the other thread it is the most difficult aspect to teach a hitter. The problem is that most hitters dont understand it and certainly do not practice it near enough. They want to take their hands to the ball. That is what they have done since they were 2 years old and were able to grab something and swing it. Its natural. Staying connected sends this message to the brain. HEY DUMMY thats not what I DO.


So you have to go through the unlearn process to develop the learn process. It aint easy and I will be the first to tell you that at your first lesson with me. But you need an open mind to change and if you have that then you will see improvement. It takes time to change muscle memory and sometimes you have to slow down to speed up. The question becomes one of is the student and the parents willing to take the time to go thorugh the relearn process.

Some are looking for the quick fix for their child. I can do that. But I wont. Its not in the best interest of the child. That is for me the bottom line.

Elliott.

 

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Straightleg, We see girls do this all the time. The batter taking the hands to the ball first is the same reaction of an outfielder taking a first step toward the ball on a well hit fly ball instead of drop stepping then coming in to make the catch. They need to overcome their instinct and instead go through the process. If you have a girl taking her hands to the ball first must be one who is not going trough the process of negative move to positive move to toe touch then into the connection/hitting phase. If she is doing the prehitting phase correctly then there are a number of drills we have all talked about that might help. The Epstein Torque drill is helpful, I think. I know there is no separation of the hands from the shoulder in that drill but many drills don't resemble the correct swing but they do isolate a section of the swing that needs correction. I have seen the frisbee throwing drill with the bottom hand as well as Candrea's skipping the rock drill help with the correct sequencing. I know it can be frustrating watching someone struggle especially when they do T work and BP well but perhaps this is a situation than is a confidence thing rather than a mechanical thing. I hope it turns around for your DD as the season goes along.

 

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Straightleg, Another thing I see w/ alot of these girls is they hit great off the tee and bp. When it comes the game they let the ball get too far in on them. My dd use to do this alot. One way I broke her of this was throwing her in the 70mph baseball cages. It has helped her bat speed tremendously. Make sure you adjust the speed of the cages so she can see the difference in the speed of her bat. The main the thing is proper mechanics while doing this tho. I know 70mph is nothing for all the older girls, my dd is only 11. It took a few dollars till she understood why I was doing this, but now she is stroking the ball.

I hope this helps, and good luck this season.

Mike

 

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There is also a lot of variation in how the human eyeball is set in the head. For example your eyes may be set close together or further apart or deeper in the socket or a termed used called bugged eyed or the eyes are setting further out and forward in the socket. We are all different so there is no set rule to how to see the ball better unless you try and see yourself in a mirror.

A test to see if both the eyes and the head are turned far enough toward the pitcher is to have the hitter look into a mirror and see if both eyes have evidence of the white on either side of the eyes and are equally spaced in the socket of the eye. This is not set in concrete as to being equally spaced however some evidence of the white of the eyes usually indicates you are seeing the ball better and the eyes are not straining as to position of the eye in the socket and position of the head. If you turn your head all the way to the right and then look just using your eyes towards the left you can feel the strain on the eyes.

Depending on the amount of muscle mass located at the back of the neck/ shoulder this could be why your head feels restricted or does not move as well. This is why we use the 5 to 10 degree offset in either a closed or open stance. We picked this up from TSW's Science of Hitting.

Remember this is only a 2 to 4 inch offset and that is not an extreme like you see some pro players use. You should be able to see the ball out of the pitchers hand or window of release comfortably and not feel a strain on the eyes in the socket or in your neck/ shoulders. Avoid the extremes!

We have seen and heard coaches who preach moving up in the batters box to catch the ball before it breaks, rises or drops. Sometimes the coach will say we want to speed the hitters swing up by moving forward. If you think about it a little you are affecting your hitters timing and rhythm and have you ever practiced doing this before coach? Why would you make a pitchers fast ball appear to be faster or her drop or rise look dramatically different especially if you have never practiced doing it?

A good way to demonstrate what adjustments a hitter must make is to use a pitching machine. Caution must be used if using a public cage because if you move to far forward you will be out in the area in front of the cage and you could get hit by balls being hit by others. If the pitching machine is in a single cage or on the field you can keep moving forward with out it being a safety issue. Never go any farther forward than you would hit a rise ball at or hands above the plane of the pitch.

If you are feeding the balls we recommend doing it so you give a pitchers motion with timing just like a hitter will see. To do this hold a ball in your left hand so the ball is partially started into the feeding tube and then holding a ball in your right hand, start your arm swing back using your right hand and then forward and up and at about the 12 o?clock position feed the ball into the machine using the ball from your left hand. Make your practices look close to actual mechanics when ever possible.

The next thing we do is as a right handed hitter we use a left hander?s fielding glove and have the hitter load, go to toe touch and catch the ball. You want to make sure they track the ball from the pitching machine to the glove using their eyes and head. This is done by giving your head a slight head start to the right and then using your eyes to track the ball into the glove. It is not swinging your head rapidly or keeping your head rigid and trying just to track it with your eyes only. It is a combination of both or what we term minimum head movement and maximum eye movement.

We start our position in the cage from as far back as we can catch the ball by extending the right hand forward using our correct hitting mechanics i.e. load, step, hands go back or separates rearward at toe touch and then the back elbow comes down to slot and connection begins; as we catch the ball simulating contact.

We then take one step forward and repeat the process again. You will reach a point where the ball will be too high to catch using your hitting mechanics. Then start going rearward until the pitch is to low to catch correctly.

Now let?s do it using a bat. To practice hitting to the opposite field move away from the plate and for inside pitches move in towards the plate however always start from as far back as you can and never go any farther forward than you could properly hit a high pitch.

If you could catch the ball with your glove visualize catching it with your bat however understand the human eye can not see the ball and bat collision if the speed of the ball is over 35 MPH.

We are creating what we call a hitters swing DNA by trying to adjust to pitches that are high, low and speeding up/down which require us to make adjustments just like we do in a game. Your brain is storing different heights and calculating different speeds of the ball so when you hit in a game your brain has seen this before and you won?t have to think, you will just do it and become more decisive about hitting. If you are thinking in the batters box you are probably an out!

Did the players have any problems adjusting going forward or backwards?
Since you are practicing having the players adjust it makes game situations easier for them to adjust to. Have a plan and execute it during practice so games situations are easier to adjust to.

This also brings up another point. When you are throwing batting practice or using a pitching machine show a pitchers motion and give the hitter a sense of timing and rhythm otherwise you are wasting your time and giving the hitter bad information for their swing DNA data base!

I often see coaches force the entire team to move up in the box based on the pitchers speed or movement of the ball...each hitter has different abilities and adjustments like these usually result in a lot of outs for most of the teams especially if the pitcher has speed and then keeps changing the speed. You are forcing your hitters to react quicker because they are closer to the pitcher and if they don't have good swing mechanics you are forcing them to make an adjustment they have never practiced for.

 

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This brings up a very interesting point, we dont make a batter move up in the box for a faster pitcher, even to catch a rise ball, common sense would tell you to start hands higher if she is a constant rise ball pitcher. a very good example is how Monaca Abbott from Tn got man handled last year in the world series after using that same pitch all year to set a strike out record in the NCAA. but after saying that, there are times when facing a very slow pitcher that if the batter isnt up in the box the ball is so slow coming across the plate that sometimes it dosent even make it, i cant tell you how many times ive seen batters look like they are swinging at a drop/offspeed change up, and its supposed to be a fast ball, i dont condone moving up all the time, and i do understand and pratice the batters DNA workouts,,,, but for my own curiousity,s sake do you think that when facing a pitcher like that its ok to make that move up?..... or just stay back and do the best you can ...thanks

Tim

 

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Howard - good point about moving up/back in the box. There is some very good sound logic in the reasoning.

Let's assume you have taught your kids to only swing at pitches that appear to be strikes (in a perfect world ;D). Let's also assume that we have a very good umpire that is calling balls and strikes very accurately (again, in a perfect world ;D). If pitches are "looping short" of the strike zone and falling short, why would you want your batter to move up in the box and start swinging at balls? Now let's say the pitcher is "looping" pitches that are high and out of the strike zone. Why would you want your batter moving BACK in the box to try to hit an obvious ball? The only time I think it may be prudent to move everyone in your lineup up or back in the box is when the umpire is consistently calling either low or high pitches. Otherwise, I'd think the adjustment they make would be more geared to their individual ability/preference. Your #1 hitter may prefer to be up slightly, and she has proven success there, whereas your #4 may prefer to be back slightly.

 

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Great points. At your level of competition you have played most of these teams and scouted them enough to know what the pitcher has and could make a choice to move the team up or back in the box. However if she has speed and can change speeds then this is a formula for disaster in my opinion if you apply it to the entire team. I see it at the high school level all the time and pitchers like Jas and Emma get 12 to 14 strike outs per game.

CB moves more in and out from the plate than up and back to bait the pitchers. Every game is filmed and every pitch is gunned and charted and what sequence she threw in with runners on and count.

UT has a hitting philosophy or had at least last year to take a change up unless they had two strikes and AZ adjusted and threw 7 in a row.

When you know the tendices it makes it easier to adjust.

Creating the swing DNA is important and then the adjustments the coaches see makes it easier for the hitter to apply in my opinion during their at bat.

 

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Sammy i agree with you that i wouldent move everyone up and its a personal comfort level to the individual batters , if the pitch were to fall short of the plate then heck no i wouldent want them swinging, that question was mainly for my own curiousity, because i have in the past when facing a slower pitcher and i mean much slower than we normaly face ( you might see one of these teams maybe one out of 20 times in a season, maybe a bit more in school ball) had the batter who has fast hands move up on the plate if shes struggling with the slower pitching, i might have been wrong to do it but if she makes connection and drives the ball from that position then to me its justified, now after the game and when we go back to fundamentals we,ll discuss keeping the hands back and waiting on that slower pitching, but geesh sometimes trying to get a point across to a 15 year old is slightly less difficult than tunneling thru a mountain with your forhead......

Tim

 

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I know what you mean about the tunneling - sometimes you gotta get a sharper bit!

Getting to toe touch with good timing, then keeping the hands back and loaded waiting on a change-up is a very difficult skill to master. Even the best college hitters get fooled and wind up with their weight out on their front foot. That's why I'm a believer in change of speeds over change of planes against the best hitters. Great hitters figure out how to adjust their swing to hit movement pitches. But hitting a very deceptive change-up requires a hitter to not only make a "plane" adjustment, but they also must make a drastic timing adjustment - very difficult for a lot of batters.

 

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I have a group of high school girls that had problems hitting the change up. The Drill that Howard gave me works great. If you read above on how you use a pitching machine. We are giving them fast balls. On the outside corner of the plate we have a small T wth a ball on top. If would depect a change up location. They never know when we are not putting the ball in the machine and we yell change up. They must adjust the swing and go down and hit the ball on the T. I didn't have a small enough T , so I use an empty plastic milk jug.

 

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Schutt sells a Schutt Shorty Tee that is 14 high and we place it back from the front edge of home plate about 3 inches and about 3 inches in toward the hitter from the outside corner.

We tell the hitter to think in, in, in and adjust to away...I side soft toss and throw the ball inside the ball on the tee and they hit it. We are looking to see if they are trying to anticipate if I am going to throw the ball and look at their eyes. If I do not release the ball they keep their eyes in the hitting zone and adjust away and hit the ball on the tee.

What you usually see is they will look up trying to track the ball in your hand and do not adjust to the ball on the tee. The hitters claim it feels like a change up; when they look up you can see where they started their hands and then stopped. However if they keep their head in the zone they react more quickly and keep their weight back with their hands.

 

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Let's say you have a pitcher that is throwing a very, very good movement pitch - such as a rise ball or a curve. We have faced two girls, in particular, that have one or the other that is there "go-to" pitch. Is it better to keep the girls in the same position in the box, i.e. their comfort zone, or to have them move up some to try to catch the ball before it breaks? Or perhaps move back in the box some in the case of a good rise ball pitcher in hopes it is then called a ball and the girls get a longer look at it (and thus not tempted to swing as it is then higher)? In both cases the pitches were being called strikes as we were either swinging or they were in the strike zone.

I liked the drill Howard gave earlier in order to help the girls to adjust to the speed if you adjust where you stand in the box. Now I'm curious as to what your approach would be if you are seeing a steading dose of one of these pitches.

Thanks,
Marie

 

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I will let him answer, but we don't move up or back. We move in and out. Jeff C. was at the Wright State clinic, I'm sure he can answer. I didn't see you there, Marie I'm sure we talked at the Greenville Clinic.

 

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By practicing moving up and back against a pitching machine helps create the swing DNA. However the umpires perceived strike zone must at least be considered which is why we tell our kids it is their job to call balls and strikes and determine what they can hit and the only thing we want the umpire to do is call safe or out. By the third inning your catcher should be able to tell you what their zone is and you could make a team adjustment.

I don't believe in moving up unless I feel the pitcher has absolutely no speed.

I also do not think moving up or back based on a rise or curve is good strategy however if they are staying with a drop ball especially with two strikes and the umpires is giving it to them we will move forward on her motion.

I saw for the first time last year on the NPF tour hitters using a walk up motion against what they felt would be a drop ball pitch and they hit hard line drives. I personally had never seen that technique used before.

When we first start with our students we show them how to measure off from the plate so they can hit a pitch that is 6 inches in or out of the strike zone from that position. It builds their confidence to be able to do it in a game. We have hit the ball when they try to intentionally walk us by making the in out adjustment as the pitcher starts their motion or during their motion. I like the in/ out adjustment better as it puts the pressure on the person calling pitches be it the catcher or a coach.

For me it is a timing issue and the back corner to the front edge of home plate seems to work well with our hitters and the data supports it however there are other factors that must be considered...and your opinion as a coach of your hitters is a factor and you guess right sometime and guess wrong and that is what makes the game a chess match at times...

 

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Hey SB - you're right, unfortunately I wasn't able to attend Wright State. I did go to the Greenville Clinic though (I'll send you a PM - not sure who you are yet lol). Always looking to learn! I'm sure Jeff knows the answer too, but I like to participate in these discussions in addition to talking to Jeff.

Thanks for the info Howard. I used to be a big believer in moving up or back in the box, but after talking to you and Elliott and watching a lot of softball on tv as well as attending some clinics, my eyes have been opened.

Thanks again!

Marie

 

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One question......How do you keep a bat parallel to the ground on a ball that is at your knees,which is a strike by the way
Try it some time. You cant do it , arms are to short or you must bend to far over.

Also I see to many girls waiting to see if it is going to be a strike before they start their step or motion, its to late if you wait. At 54mph it takes about 1/2 a second for the ball to cross home plate. Time your DD from first motion to contact point and see how much time that really takes, its almost the same. So what do they do,,,,,,,,,,,,, they change their swing to make contact, they remove some of their motion----ie. less power. Alot of girls haven't figured out to judge the ball as their motion is going toward the contact point, stopping it on balls and to continuing it on strikes.

If their mechanics are perfect on the tee and with the softtoss but bad in a game. We tend to think its the small things or pitcher issues etc. Most of the time its the most obivous thing we dont even look for.... Judge as you swing not judge then swing.