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travel ball once a place for the above average player now a place for anyone who wants to have a team. if your new to the sport (last 5 years) no need to respond, if you have been around ten plus years tell me what you think
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I guess I don't quite make the 10 year mark that bruiser is asking for, but am well over the 5 year mark, so what the heck its just an opinion. I prefer to use a different term and that is evolving. When my DD's started playing about 8 years ago, there were some strong teams, but there were also weak teams (we played for one), and many middle of the road teams. It seems true that you see more teams today then ever before, trying to play in tournaments. Are all the players really tournament caliber? Probably not. Do all the coaches know the game well enough to develop players to tournament caliber? Probably not. Looking back, when my DD's started playing they probably weren't really ready either. Seeing the level of play was higher then they were used to in rec ball made them work harder to get "there". We searched for and found private instructors, tried out for (sometimes made, sometimes didn't) better teams until they landed in situations that made them better ball players.
Ohio softball as a whole is working toward the same thing. The teams that want to be recognized as top tier will work toward getting better, but so will the average and weak teams. I expect some teams to begin to arrange their own competition. Friendly tournaments is an example. Bring in a group of teams that will be competitive with each other, and not worry about trophies etc. This can work for all levels of teams. Other then seeing the competition, does either team benefit from a mismatch? Stronger team coasts, weaker teams gets deflated. We have some examples of Ohio teams that competed well on the National stage this summer, Classics, Slammers, Nightmare, Lasers (not meant to be a comprehensive list). What did they do that Johnnies "Bug Tussle" team did not. More teams and players is not the problem. Making sure your team is appropriately challenged is. More teams and players allow for the development of a larger number of quality athletes. There are always going to be late bloomers athletically, and kids that don't decide until later that they want to play. There is value in the different levels of play and kids and parents alike finding situations that fit for them. We always talk about the weather being a factor in Ohio softball. Clearly it is a hurdle to be overcome. What often is ignored is the numbers factor. How many kids are there playing in Orange County California? How many kids do the Batbusters get to choose from. Having more kids play in Ohio is one way to find and develop more "studs".
Ohio softball as a whole is working toward the same thing. The teams that want to be recognized as top tier will work toward getting better, but so will the average and weak teams. I expect some teams to begin to arrange their own competition. Friendly tournaments is an example. Bring in a group of teams that will be competitive with each other, and not worry about trophies etc. This can work for all levels of teams. Other then seeing the competition, does either team benefit from a mismatch? Stronger team coasts, weaker teams gets deflated. We have some examples of Ohio teams that competed well on the National stage this summer, Classics, Slammers, Nightmare, Lasers (not meant to be a comprehensive list). What did they do that Johnnies "Bug Tussle" team did not. More teams and players is not the problem. Making sure your team is appropriately challenged is. More teams and players allow for the development of a larger number of quality athletes. There are always going to be late bloomers athletically, and kids that don't decide until later that they want to play. There is value in the different levels of play and kids and parents alike finding situations that fit for them. We always talk about the weather being a factor in Ohio softball. Clearly it is a hurdle to be overcome. What often is ignored is the numbers factor. How many kids are there playing in Orange County California? How many kids do the Batbusters get to choose from. Having more kids play in Ohio is one way to find and develop more "studs".
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I agree Bruiser.... and there is good and bad with that. I have more than our fair share of tournament teams. What I am finding out is that at 10U and 12U it does help to develop very good players that would not have been developed if they stayed in the rec. leagues. At 14U, there is still some truth to the above. If they are not developed by 16U, it is "almost" too late for them. However, after saying that about 16U, does it help them if they are on their high school team to be better high school players?? It either helps them, hurts them or doesn't matter.
While some programs just go out and find the best players to play for them, we look more at developing the players.... someone has to do it. This is not bashing the other programs, just a fact of softball life. I was amazed this past year when our second 10U team who consistently lost early in the season to a certain team by an average of 18 runs ended up beating this same team in the last tournament of the summer in the championship game, 7-3. They ended up losing in the second championship game 3-2. If you would have seen this team last September, you would have thought that I was nuts for giving them the opportunity to play tournament ball (I even questioned my own sanity). These girls proved that I was not totally crazy (thank you very much Ladies).
So, I ask.... why not give the average player an opportunity to play against better competition??
While some programs just go out and find the best players to play for them, we look more at developing the players.... someone has to do it. This is not bashing the other programs, just a fact of softball life. I was amazed this past year when our second 10U team who consistently lost early in the season to a certain team by an average of 18 runs ended up beating this same team in the last tournament of the summer in the championship game, 7-3. They ended up losing in the second championship game 3-2. If you would have seen this team last September, you would have thought that I was nuts for giving them the opportunity to play tournament ball (I even questioned my own sanity). These girls proved that I was not totally crazy (thank you very much Ladies).
So, I ask.... why not give the average player an opportunity to play against better competition??
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I have been coaching for over 12 years. On and off with travel ball and rec ball up through the 16U travel team level. Most recently last year started a new 14U team to make below average players above average..
Unfortunately too many coaches that I see just join up with the big name organizations which attract the best kids even though many of the coaches don't know what they are doing. Travel ball shouldn't be the haven of the above average, but should be the place where below average kids are given the opportunity to play better competition and coached to become the above average. It can only be in every highschool and colleges best interest that more and more girls are playing travel ball.
The bottom line is that the problem is not the below average player, but the below average coaches that make the proliferation of teams a problem.
Unfortunately too many coaches that I see just join up with the big name organizations which attract the best kids even though many of the coaches don't know what they are doing. Travel ball shouldn't be the haven of the above average, but should be the place where below average kids are given the opportunity to play better competition and coached to become the above average. It can only be in every highschool and colleges best interest that more and more girls are playing travel ball.
The bottom line is that the problem is not the below average player, but the below average coaches that make the proliferation of teams a problem.
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Very good point LakeFP..... we also took this challenge about below average coaches and developing them into above average coaches. Our coaches meet almost every week in the winter to go over the fundamentals of coaching. We had some coaches that no one would have touched last year and now they are very good coaches. To be honest with you, it was their dedication and hard work that made the difference.... we just gave them the opportunity.
If you wait for a highly qualified coach to knock on your door and ask to coach for you, well, good luck. Trust me, there are a lot of good people out there just waiting for the opportunity to be a successful coach.
If you wait for a highly qualified coach to knock on your door and ask to coach for you, well, good luck. Trust me, there are a lot of good people out there just waiting for the opportunity to be a successful coach.
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Good pont Lake. The original post suggest that travel ball is like an elite country club or something. I have been around the sport long time having sisters and a father that coached in the late 80's and early 90's. I can tell you this, Ohio is behind when it comes to travel ball if you look in the southern and western states. They have had tons of club and travel teams for decades. having allot of travel teams makes for better competition across the board and makes Ohio more competitive on the national scene.
Ohio was held back for too long with baseball oriented organizations also over seeing the softball. There are good teams and bad teams out there but even the bad teams will be better than playing rec if they play competitive teams. this does not apply for all teams but I have heard this select word thrown around for too long. Fastpitch is now a year around sport with all the indoor facilities and there is some considerable time and money needed to develop high caliber "select" girls. Give me enough money and facility access and I can go to the projects near any of your home towns and put together an elite select team with in 2 years. When I read select being refered to like I did above I just substitue priveledged for the word because that is really what you are getting at. Given the same opportunity and training kids in the projects could compete with our suburban dds on any given day. When some samaritans step up and make that happen we will see how crowded or flooded the select market really is.
Ohio was held back for too long with baseball oriented organizations also over seeing the softball. There are good teams and bad teams out there but even the bad teams will be better than playing rec if they play competitive teams. this does not apply for all teams but I have heard this select word thrown around for too long. Fastpitch is now a year around sport with all the indoor facilities and there is some considerable time and money needed to develop high caliber "select" girls. Give me enough money and facility access and I can go to the projects near any of your home towns and put together an elite select team with in 2 years. When I read select being refered to like I did above I just substitue priveledged for the word because that is really what you are getting at. Given the same opportunity and training kids in the projects could compete with our suburban dds on any given day. When some samaritans step up and make that happen we will see how crowded or flooded the select market really is.
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Bruiser...I don't know if you meant it, but you have started one of the best reads on the OFC in quite a while. ?I applaud each of the posters to this point for their insight. ?We (Breakers) have been working very hard to develop new younger talent and provide the knowledgeable coaches to do it. ?This is the most important thing we can all do to help Ohio softball.
I had two girls from our 10u team come-up to me a few weeks ago and say they may not see me at tryouts this year because they wanted to tryout for the Lasers. ?I was very proud that these two girls wanted to be elite players, and that they received the encouragement and instruction this year to give them the confidence that they can do it. ?These two girls came from rec ball the year before looking for something better and now they have their eyes-on-the-prize. ?
It takes organizations like mine to be a stepping stone. ?These great players on the Lasers, Ice, MVE, Grand Slam, Wolfpack, Nightmare, etc... are not born with this talent, they were taught and taught and taught some more. ?I want every girl that plays for my organization to want to be an elite player, then I know the coaches job is a little bit easier.
Doug
Breakers of Rocky River
I had two girls from our 10u team come-up to me a few weeks ago and say they may not see me at tryouts this year because they wanted to tryout for the Lasers. ?I was very proud that these two girls wanted to be elite players, and that they received the encouragement and instruction this year to give them the confidence that they can do it. ?These two girls came from rec ball the year before looking for something better and now they have their eyes-on-the-prize. ?
It takes organizations like mine to be a stepping stone. ?These great players on the Lasers, Ice, MVE, Grand Slam, Wolfpack, Nightmare, etc... are not born with this talent, they were taught and taught and taught some more. ?I want every girl that plays for my organization to want to be an elite player, then I know the coaches job is a little bit easier.
Doug
Breakers of Rocky River
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I don't quilify for the ten year mark but I do have an opinion. ?If your DD is looking for better competion, and the the rec ball around her is pretty bad, what alternative do you have but to join or form a tournament team so the girls can face the better competion, not just girls who are there because they have to be. If your DD is playing High School ball. in many ways it is the same as playing 18u, maybe not at the elite levels, but if your DD is a freshman and is playing varsity ball like muine did, the experience of playing in tourneys is invaluable.
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I've been around this sport for a long time, playing back in the late 80's/ early 90's. Evolving is a pretty good description. There are far more girls playing now than back then, hence far more teams and far more tournaments. The elite teams & top level tournaments are still there, but there are plenty of alternatives for yor lower & mid level teams. No one is polluting the premier tournaments, there are just far more choices available. More teams & more tournaments mean more girls playing.
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Funny thing, bad 10 and 11 year olds become very good 15 & 16 year olds. 
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? ? Very well said 3dm..I commend you on that. ?If more organisations have that philosophy Ohio Softball will become an engine that gets better, stronger, and never stops running. ?
? ? It's a growing animal. ?Ohio is making leaps and bounds right now and as long as we keep a lot of our tournaments quality-level we'll be fine.
? ? It's a growing animal.
?Ohio is making leaps and bounds right now and as long as we keep a lot of our tournaments quality-level we'll be fine.
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Let me add to the cautionary notes here. Who really worries about whether Ohio softball is "growing or polluted"? Certainly not the players. I was at our organization's tryout yesterday (12s, 14s, 16s, and 18s) and I'm willing to bet that very few, if any, of even the 18s were worried about whether they were contributing to the advancement of Ohio softball. Certainly we coaches might have reason to observe the general quality of players and teams, but I'm not at all convinced that it makes much of a difference. Clearly there are more young women playing the game than there were in the past and the number of tournaments has increased, but so has the type of tournament. They vary from relatively local ones, to state-wide, and regional. Teams find their way to the level of engagement they desire.
It seems to me that in one sense from the point of view of many, who really cares? Let me offer one example. If you're sitting at your local HS basketball game (let's assume a game between two good teams in a good conference), I'm sure that no one in his or her right mind is thinking, "Well, these teams are OK, but if they played Christ the King from New York City, they'd get trounced." Maybe the two teams are just OK or even worse, but does that make any difference at all to the most important people involved in this -- the players themselves? Should it make any difference to the coaches, who ought to be teaching the game?
Don't get me wrong, I've seen some pretty shaky teams out there recently. They may not compare favorably to the teams from established organizations, but sometimes they do. Let's suppose for a moment that we attend a tournament of what we could call for lack of a better term a set of "middling" teams. So we're not at Stingrays, Compuware, Best of the Best, Aurora, Boulder, etc. But what do we see in front of us, for the most part? We see young women players competing, learning the game, learning about themselves, and getting better. (What we coaches forget is that players will get better if they simply play. We're useful and important, but not indispensable.) If we see those things, that seems pretty good to me.
One last note -- I coach with one of the better organizations in Ohio. Given the topic of this thread, what should we say to the young women at tryouts who are not skilled enough to make our team? Should we say to them "You know, you're not good enough to make our team, perhaps you shouldn't play at all. If you do play you will do damage to Ohio softball"?
It seems to me that in one sense from the point of view of many, who really cares? Let me offer one example. If you're sitting at your local HS basketball game (let's assume a game between two good teams in a good conference), I'm sure that no one in his or her right mind is thinking, "Well, these teams are OK, but if they played Christ the King from New York City, they'd get trounced." Maybe the two teams are just OK or even worse, but does that make any difference at all to the most important people involved in this -- the players themselves? Should it make any difference to the coaches, who ought to be teaching the game?
Don't get me wrong, I've seen some pretty shaky teams out there recently. They may not compare favorably to the teams from established organizations, but sometimes they do. Let's suppose for a moment that we attend a tournament of what we could call for lack of a better term a set of "middling" teams. So we're not at Stingrays, Compuware, Best of the Best, Aurora, Boulder, etc. But what do we see in front of us, for the most part? We see young women players competing, learning the game, learning about themselves, and getting better. (What we coaches forget is that players will get better if they simply play. We're useful and important, but not indispensable.) If we see those things, that seems pretty good to me.
One last note -- I coach with one of the better organizations in Ohio. Given the topic of this thread, what should we say to the young women at tryouts who are not skilled enough to make our team? Should we say to them "You know, you're not good enough to make our team, perhaps you shouldn't play at all. If you do play you will do damage to Ohio softball"?
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Hmmm. How do I reply to this thread? Polluted Ohio softball?It seems like we are competing well, I coach in the Valley Extreme organization and our 12u team from Ohio won Pony Nationals our 16u team from Ohio won Pony Nationals. Our 14u team from Ohio won Compuware.Our other teams won various tournaments throughout the season and LOST to some very good Ohio teams. From what i have seen over the past few years is that our Ohio girls are getting more competetive because they are playing with and against better competition. The TEN year remark....Ten years ago alot of people did not know of Travel ball, heck as big as it is now alot of people come up and ask what is it all about? quite often. Ten years ago people may not have had the time or money to play at this level so alot of greatly talented girls whom should have been playing travel ball, were stuck in rec. and never had the oppurtunity. You absolutely cannot compare now to back then yo have to compare apples to apples not grapes to grapefruits!
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Many small town rec programs that were barely fielding teams are forcing more players to look to travel ball. imho. Girls may not be studs when they move into travel ball, but they love the game none the less.
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It warms my spirit to read the replies to this thread. I am glad to see that the majority believe in the more the marier. My concluding point is Ohio programs are now winning big name tournaments on a regular basis due to what i concider a overall better pool of talented players. Fastpitch is one of (if not) the highest participation sport for girls in the country, so the teams are going to keep coming. Select is dominating the rec programs numbers now and that is good because softball oriented organizations are more involved on this side than the baseball organizations that run allot of rec programs. The more elite Ohio team, the more tournaments are won by Ohio teams. players may not think about what is best for Ohio softball but colleges will notice and scouts will come from further away to look at Ohio players. Based on this, parents, coaches and select fastpitch organizations should welcome all select teams with open arms because eventually it may benefit them directly.
Good luck to all the old and new teams in the upcoming season.
Good luck to all the old and new teams in the upcoming season.
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I echo your sentiments Hawks. We had 23 tournament teams this past summer. While not all were competitive, we feel that the majority of these girls improved and will continue to improve. Our tryout numbers were high yesterday and while we are not hoping for more teams, we do what we have to to provide opportunities for these girls to play at a higher level. Our philosophy is opportunities and training. We are hoping that our fellow tournament programs will embrace this philosophy to spread out the number of teams to all of the programs.
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Anytime girls are playing softball it is a good thing. Players love to play and it does not matter if they are playing in the NSA Worlds, or a Non-Sanctioned small town tournament as long as they are competing. Having lots of teams makes it easier for players to find a team close to their area and price range.
JMHO
JMHO
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As a relative newbie to the sport in relation to my own DD, but someone who has followed fastpitch for many years, I'm glad to see the sport sprouting in just about every sub-urb in ohio, which pretty much tells you it's blossoming everywhere else as well. It's all about oppurtunity. For instance, when we played in houston, there was a tourney called the "latin" where only latin-american born players could attend...while the enrollment for said tourney is down somewhat over the years, the org that has run the tourney for over 20 years, has included a youth female section of the tourney, that now outdraws the men's fastpitch tourney! WOW!
Not every girl can play infield for the lasers, but why should anyone deny the right for them to play, and then call it "polluted" Is this what college basketball thought when african-american players began playing the sport, or do major leaguers think the influx of Latin american players are "polluting" the sport? If anyone did the research, there are se3veral classifications of playing, class A, class B, etc. There are plenty of oppurtunities for everyone in this sport, and we havent even tapped softball into the inner-city. Just wait, one day it will happen. A group of girls from columbus are going to come by and whip some butt, simply because someone will will take the time and instruct them the right way.
From the tourneys we attended, looks like there is plenty of good ball being played. And while not every tourney is a compuware or a stingray invitational or a best of the best, doesn't mean we should belittle the accomplishments of someone winning the zanesville jamboree, or the warcat invitational, or a pony tourney somewhere in ohio.
If anything, what this boom has taught us, especially from the gripes we see on the ofc are....
1) the lack of good coaches...which is to be expected when dads are the one doing it...regardless if it's a deep-rooted selfishness to play their favorites or for not "reaching" the girls, this will only continue until there is some training involved in teaching travel, like say in soccer. For now, parents must find the right "dad" so to speak, and hopefully they are piggy-backing what is being instructed instead of bad-mouthing what the coach is instructing in the mini-van after the game.
2) umpires--hey, there are only so many good ones. They dont get paid like doctors, and they arent governed like teachers (and speaking of teachers, and being one myself, there are some really bad ones too). Every game is close to a crapshoot.
but what is good are...
1) girls who love the game....looks at al the girls who are emotional after a win/loss, or who spend every weekend with their "friends" instead of being at the movies and not complaining. dont you just love a girl who complains about a rain delay? it's the best!
2) concessions--seriously, people know how to cook and make you spend money
3) parents--hey, without them we wouldn't have the ofc, tourneys, etc...
excellent thread, bruiser, maybe work on the semantics of the language, but that's not a reason to flog you in the middle of the ofc...we leave that kind of stuff for the ringer.
this has been a great read over the last few days
Not every girl can play infield for the lasers, but why should anyone deny the right for them to play, and then call it "polluted" Is this what college basketball thought when african-american players began playing the sport, or do major leaguers think the influx of Latin american players are "polluting" the sport? If anyone did the research, there are se3veral classifications of playing, class A, class B, etc. There are plenty of oppurtunities for everyone in this sport, and we havent even tapped softball into the inner-city. Just wait, one day it will happen. A group of girls from columbus are going to come by and whip some butt, simply because someone will will take the time and instruct them the right way.
From the tourneys we attended, looks like there is plenty of good ball being played. And while not every tourney is a compuware or a stingray invitational or a best of the best, doesn't mean we should belittle the accomplishments of someone winning the zanesville jamboree, or the warcat invitational, or a pony tourney somewhere in ohio.
If anything, what this boom has taught us, especially from the gripes we see on the ofc are....
1) the lack of good coaches...which is to be expected when dads are the one doing it...regardless if it's a deep-rooted selfishness to play their favorites or for not "reaching" the girls, this will only continue until there is some training involved in teaching travel, like say in soccer. For now, parents must find the right "dad" so to speak, and hopefully they are piggy-backing what is being instructed instead of bad-mouthing what the coach is instructing in the mini-van after the game.
2) umpires--hey, there are only so many good ones. They dont get paid like doctors, and they arent governed like teachers (and speaking of teachers, and being one myself, there are some really bad ones too). Every game is close to a crapshoot.
but what is good are...
1) girls who love the game....looks at al the girls who are emotional after a win/loss, or who spend every weekend with their "friends" instead of being at the movies and not complaining. dont you just love a girl who complains about a rain delay? it's the best!
2) concessions--seriously, people know how to cook and make you spend money
3) parents--hey, without them we wouldn't have the ofc, tourneys, etc...
excellent thread, bruiser, maybe work on the semantics of the language, but that's not a reason to flog you in the middle of the ofc...we leave that kind of stuff for the ringer.
this has been a great read over the last few days
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Absolutely the more the merrier. If anything, even remotely, is polluting Ohio softball, it's the coaches and tournament directors who get into coaching/running tournaments for all the wrong reasons - usually $$$ or an ego boost. I even support "Daddy-Ball" as a matter of fact. I have never been a "daddy coach", but I would support any father starting a team - provided this guy is a teacher of the game. Any time there is more opportunity at ANY level - rec through Gold - it's a good thing for the sport in general.
Look at it this way - sheer numbers will give every girl that wants to play an opportunity at a level that she is capable of. The talent "curve" becomes a lot more gradual, meaning girls can move up the talent ladder in baby steps, not big jumps - which may cause them to lose interest because they think they can't compete.
IMO, if a kid WANTS to play, she needs to be able to easily find a team that fits her level. The more teams (at ALL levels) there are, the better her chances. It's a crime to turn a kid away because she just happens to be a little behind the "curve". I applaud the coaches of the "lesser" teams who take these kids and mold them into fundamentally sound softball players.
Look at it this way - sheer numbers will give every girl that wants to play an opportunity at a level that she is capable of. The talent "curve" becomes a lot more gradual, meaning girls can move up the talent ladder in baby steps, not big jumps - which may cause them to lose interest because they think they can't compete.
IMO, if a kid WANTS to play, she needs to be able to easily find a team that fits her level. The more teams (at ALL levels) there are, the better her chances. It's a crime to turn a kid away because she just happens to be a little behind the "curve". I applaud the coaches of the "lesser" teams who take these kids and mold them into fundamentally sound softball players.
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Hawks14U said:
According to the NFHS, fastpitch is fourth on the participation list (as of the 2004-05 school year):
| Sport | Girls Participation |
| Basketball | 456,543 |
| Track and Field-Outdoor | 428,198 |
| Volleyball | 386,022 |
| Softball-Fast Pitch | 364,759 |
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