Help understanding the DP/Flex rule

[default]

This is the one rule I have never fully understood. I have read on 2 different sites information explaining the rule. On one site, it states that team A is taking advantage of using both the DP and Flex: at one point they have a player who needs a break, so they put the DP in defensively for this player to give them a breather. Next inning another player needs a breather so the DP plays the field for that player while they take a breather. But in both cases these are not considered substitutions. They are just defensive switches between players. Another site states that the DP/Flex cannot be the same person, but that the rule joins the 2 players at the hip.
So can you have one player who is listed as both the DP/Flex? Is it okay to take your DP and put them on defensive say 2 innings in a row to give a player a breather for a inning? Any help on understanding this rule would be greatly appreciated.

 

[default]

We use this a good bit. To make it short a DP can play defence anytime anywhere and flex can only go into batting order in the DP spot. That puts the DP out of the game until you put the flex back in the flex spot. This is not a substitution.

 

[default]

http://www.mhsa.org/Softball/DPFlexRule.pdf

 

[default]

cgs,

That is a good, easy to understand version of the the rule, to anyone who dose not understand the rule, copy it and keep it with.

 

[default]

Okay both your explanations and the web site help.
This is a example of what happened in a tournament game that really confused me on this rule.
Team started a player in the 10th position as the DP/Flex? (Same player as both) Then later in about the 3 or 4th inning, they used the 10 player and substituted them in for the 3rd player in the batting lineup. Which as the umpire explained it nullified the DP/Flex position altogether, and took them down to 9 players in the batting lineup.

 

[default]

If you are using the dp/flex, you can only bat 9 how did they have ten in the batting order. You list 10 names but only 9 bat so for them to allow the player in the 10 spot to hit is mistake number one. The flex doesn't bat, they just play in the field.
Number ten is just there, and not hitting, if she is to hit she can only hit in the DP spot in the order. (The way i understand it) Now number 11 and up can replace someone once, then the replaced player can return once. but that is another mess all together.

 

[default]

That looks a bit like the old EP rule, which I didn't think anyone used anymore, but in that rule you never go from 10 batters to 9. The DP/Flex rule never has 10 batters only 9 and they are not the same player. I will tell you this alot of umpires don't understand the DP/Flex rule.

 

[default]

Bluelight, yes a lot of people especially umpires do not understand the DP/Flex rule. I have come across a lot of coaches that do not understand the rule either. No matter what level they are at. The Flex can bat but only in the DP position. That does bring your line up from 10 to 9 and the person playing in the DP spot is charged with coming out of the lineup. Also you can have the DP and Flex play defense at the same time. Make sure you tell the umpires this at the plate conference. That will give you an idea if they know the rule. Whom ever they play defense for it is considered a free substitution. However if the DP is playing defense and the Flex is not playing defense at the same time then the Flex is considered to have left the game and is charged appropriately. You can go back and fourth from 10 to 9 players any number of times provided those intitial players and their substitutes follow the standard rules of substitution. I think the problem lies with umpires that umpire in ASA, USSSA among others and they get the rule confused with the DH and EP rule. Also some tournaments that are ASA qualifiers will change and say we will be using the DH instead of the DP/Flex during pool play but then use the DP/Flex rule in elimination. That really confuses everyone.

 

[default]

Trakin daball,
Yes your line up can go from 10 to 9 but you always only bat 9. And you are right we always bring it up at the conference this gives us an idea if the umpire knows the rule. If they don't say you are or are not using the flex you better say think about it. Some let you sub the dp for a defender with out reporting it. We use it if we don't want are pitcher to hit we'll put her in the flex and bat someone else or we'll bat the pitcher and put a better defender in that is not a good hitter and put her in the flex so if the DP gets on the flex can come in an run for her and this is not a substitution. Think of it like the dh rule only both can play defence at the same time.

 

[default]

You all have made this as clear as mud.

 

[default]

Me included?

 

[default]

This is the one rule I have never fully understood. I have read on 2 different sites information explaining the rule. On one site, it states that team A is taking advantage of using both the DP and Flex: at one point they have a player who needs a break, so they put the DP in defensively for this player to give them a breather. Next inning another player needs a breather so the DP plays the field for that player while they take a breather. But in both cases these are not considered substitutions. They are just defensive switches between players. Another site states that the DP/Flex cannot be the same person, but that the rule joins the 2 players at the hip.
So can you have one player who is listed as both the DP/Flex? Is it okay to take your DP and put them on defensive say 2 innings in a row to give a player a breather for a inning? Any help on understanding this rule would be greatly appreciated.

To answer your question; You cannot have one player listed as the DP and flex in your line up.

In ASA when you hand in a 10 player lineup card, the 10th player listed is now your flex. This player is designated as defense only but can bat for the DP. Once the flex is announced as a substitute hitter for the DP, you now have a 9 player line up instead of 10. You can re-enter the same player or a substitute player back to your line up as a DP and move your flex (or 10th) player back to your line up.

Bottom line: If the DP or Flex replace each other in your line up, the line up goes to 9 players and you are charged a substitution. The DP is like a DH (in other sanctions) and has the ability to substitute freely on defense (other than for the flex) with out being charged a substitution. As with all other areas in softball and baseball, no player that has entered the game on offense can change the order in which they bat (i.e. you start the game a lead off and are substituted for, you have to return to lead off on re-entry).

The rule is in place to get playing time for more players and it can be an advantage or disadvantage to a team based on their personnel. There are many different line up options but above is the foundation.

 

[default]

Bluelight, I think any time the Flex replaces the DP in the line up or as a baserunner that is not a free substitution. Do you know where this is at in the rule book?

 

[default]

Trakin daball,
Yes your line up can go from 10 to 9 but you always only bat 9. And you are right we always bring it up at the conference this gives us an idea if the umpire knows the rule. If they don't say you are or are not using the flex you better say think about it. Some let you sub the dp for a defender with out reporting it. We use it if we don't want are pitcher to hit we'll put her in the flex and bat someone else or we'll bat the pitcher and put a better defender in that is not a good hitter and put her in the flex so if the DP gets on the flex can come in an run for her and this is not a substitution. Think of it like the dh rule only both can play defence at the same time.

Okay all........so how do you argue this point with a umpire during the game? This point was brought up when the 10 th player on the line-up batted. We questioned it to the Umpire, and he said that she was the DP/Flex and would not play the field.(ie..this makes her the DP-but they also batted 9 other players). Later they substituted this 10 th player into the game for the 3 rd person in their line up. Umpire comes over and says that the 10 th player is now going in in the 3 rd spot......mark out the rest of her at bats in the 10 th position. They will now be batting 9 players with this substitution.
So they best way to do this is bring it up at the conference and then clear it up at the beginning.

Thanks all for your help.......even though I didnt fully understand the rule. I knew that what was being done wasnt right. Just didnt know how to get my point across to the Umpire.

 

[default]

That umpire knew better than to let a player switch spots in the batting order. What should you do if this happens again? Keep a rule book handy, give him a chance to correct his call and if there is a direct violation of the rules put the game under protest. Umpires get paid to know the rules and I would not accept anything less.

 

[default]

I'm with Derek as this is a protestable event. Tell the umpire that you want a protest and then he is enforced to contact the TD immediately before another pitch is made to a batter. TD or UIC will straighten out the problem. It's their job to do so.

 

[default]

Okay all........so how do you argue this point with a umpire during the game?

One: Ask for time and wait until it is granted.

Two: Approach umpire and calmly state your case.

Three: If you don't get the answer you want, file a legal protest for the rule misapplication as outlined under Rule 9.

Now, most tournaments have warped the protest procedure outlined in the rule book by requiring some exorbitant fee, often $75 or $100, which personally I hate. The standard rules NEVER require a fee to file a protest. I guess that TD's do this to prevent frivilous protests and keep the games on time. If the protest is frivilous (not valid) it should be overturned quickly upon review and you should get right back to playing ball. And the whole notion of having to pay extra to get a call right, when the umpires are being paid to get the calls right in the first place, just rubs me the wrong way.

But that is another subject and another post for another thread!

Besides knowing the correct procedure for filing a protest, it also helps if the coach knows exactly which rule is being violated. In the scenario described above, when the FLEX batted it was a violation of rule 4-3-I. The FLEX is treated as an illegal player (which carries a different penalty than an illegal or unannounced substitution). The illegal player is disqualified from the game (which is altogether different than an ejection). The disqualified player can be replaced with a legal substitute off the bench or, if one is not available, the game may continue short-handed.

The DP/FLEX rule is pretty confusing at first glance. This single rule takes up an entire page of the rule book and is about as smooth a read as the tax the code! You really do have to work at it to grasp the nuances of who goes where and who can do what. Personally, I had to muddle through it many times before I was comfortable with it. But once you get the hang of it, all of the requirements and restrictions do begin to make sense and it can be a valuable tool.

 

[default]

Hey Bretman, why don't you give us your abbreviated version? ;&

 

[default]

That was the abbreviated version!

 

[default]

Bretman, this is one rule that I always read and re-read. It seems clear cut to me but everyone interprets things differently. With this rule though I have always understood that anytime the DP or Flex replaces one another, the one being replaced is charged with coming out of the game. In Bluelights senerio were the Flex replaces the DP on base he states it is a free substitution. I can not find that in the rule book. Is that the case?