Help understanding the DP/Flex rule

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With this rule though I have always understood that anytime the DP or Flex replaces one another, the one being replaced is charged with coming out of the game.

That is my understanding and I believe it is supported by rule 4-3-D.

This rule says that the DP may be SUBSTITUTED for by the FLEX and when this is done it means that the DP has LEFT THE GAME. The rule goes on to clarify that if the DP does come back into the game it is treated as a re-entry.

Anytime the DP or FLEX replaces the other it is treated as a substitution and falls under all of the usual rules covering sunstitutes and re-entry.

 

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B-Man. When you say substitued, you mean offensively only correct. The DP and Flex can be in the game at the same time on defense. In fact the DP and Flex must be on defense at the same time or the flex is considered out of the game, right.

 

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Anytime the flex bats or runs for the DP, or the DP comes back in to bat or run (of course only in that same spot in the order), it is treated as a substitution ... and each player can only re-enter once. The DP/Flex is a great rule/advantage for coaches who know how to use it, as long as the umpires allow it to be used the way it is intended. It allows a coach to get into the game his/her best hitter who might not otherwise play because of fielding, and his/her best fielder who might not otherwise play because of hitting. It can definitely be confusing because of all the associations who have their own rules around DH's and EP's and the like, and because sometime umps or TD's incorrectly use the DP/Flex terminology when they really mean something else.

 

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B-Man. When you say substitued, you mean offensively only correct. The DP and Flex can be in the game at the same time on defense. In fact the DP and Flex must be on defense at the same time or the flex is considered out of the game, right.

If I have picked this up correctly and am understanding it Ohio Wave 14U.........The DP (usually is your extra batter) can go in at any time for another defensive player if needed (this is not a substitute per say......unless you are actually replacing that player). The Flex (usually your defensive player-being batted for by the DP) can be substituted for the DP which removes your Flex from the Line up (but you do have a re-entry on this person)

Okay have I picked this up correctly everyone?????

 

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Bluelight, I think any time the Flex replaces the DP in the line up or as a baserunner that is not a free substitution. Do you know where this is at in the rule book?

I have the high school rule book, but the asa book is pretty close to it.
If you have one look in point of emphasis page 86 section 3-c it states

A Dp can replace anyone on defence any time ,any number of times while the flex player may replace the Dp any time any number of times.

So if are Dp goes 4 for 4, which is a good wish, the Flex can run for her every time.

 

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Just to clarify ... the DP is not an extra batter ... but one of the 9 batters in the lineup. But they can go in and play defense as well for another player in the line-up. The flex is a defensive player who the DP bats for. The flex can go in to bat or run for the DP but that removes the DP from the line-up, and it is considered a substitution.

 

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Bluelight ... no ... I am not sure how ASA defines it but in high school, the flex can not go into run for the DP every time. Once they have gone in to run (or bat) the second time, the DP is permanently out of the game.

 

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wrong, look it up I just told you where to find it.

I don't mean to sound mean but I typed it out word for word.

 

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I called a buddy of mine who is an umpire chief, he told me the flex always returns to 10 spot but every 2 at bats you have to replace the Dp if you run the the flex for the Dp, but the flex can run for the for that Dp too.

So i asked him about the line I quoted earlier and he told me that is one of the lines that conficts with the rule. It's true but dosen't tell the whole rule.

So in part I was wrong to.

 

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I called a buddy of mine who is an umpire chief, he told me the flex always returns to 10 spot but every 2 at bats you have to replace the Dp if you run the the flex for the Dp, but the flex can run for the for that Dp too.

Sounds right to me. For example:

- Starting DP reaches base. Starting FLEX player goes in to run for her.

The starting DP has left the game and has one re-entry left. The starting FLEX has not left the game and retains full re-entry rights.

- Starting DP re-enters and bats again. This would be her one re-entry. She reaches base and the starting FLEX player runs for her again.

The DP has left the game a second time and has exhausted her re-entry rights. The starting FLEX still has not left the game and retains full re-entry rights.

At this point, you have several options:

1) The FLEX may continue batting in the DP's spot and the line-up now contains nine players.

2) If you want to use another DP it would have to be a sub from the bench, since the starting DP has no re-entry left and is done for the day. In that case, the FLEX can drop back down to the 10th spot in the order and is again playing defense for the player occupying the DP position.

If you put a new DP in the line-up and she gets on base, the FLEX can run for her again and the FLEX player STILL has not left the game and STILL has all of her re-entry rights left.

3) The FLEX may leave the game and the new DP can bat and play defense in her place. The line-up stays at nine players. The FLEX could re-enter at some point, either back in the 10th spot and play defense only or in the DP spot, which would be her one re-entry and the line-up stays at nine players.

Back to the original question. It is entirely possible for the FLEX to run for the DP four times in a game. But don't confuse the DP position with the player occupying the position. It would be impossible for the FLEX to run for the same player more than twice, because that player would have no re-entry and would be out of the game.

Boy, this stuff gets more confusing the more you try to explain it!

 

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Bretman:

You would have laughed at the confusion created in one of the NFCA College Courses when Rhonda Revelle (former Northwestern and pro coach) was telling us how you could use multiple "rabbits" to run for the DP via the flex position while still keeping the original flex in the field. In College you get TWO re-entries but most of the coaches were from travel teams so . . . well, you get the picture.

 

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Thanks Bretman, that is exactly the way I understand the rule. Bluelight you originally stated it is considered a free substitution (Flex running for the DP who reaches base)which it is not. Portion of your quote below. But that is something that could confuse an umpire who is not familiar with the rule. So far the only place I never encountered problems with umpires not fully understanding this rule was at the ASA National Finals.


"We use it if we don't want are pitcher to hit we'll put her in the flex and bat someone else or we'll bat the pitcher and put a better defender in that is not a good hitter and put her in the flex so if the DP gets on the flex can come in an run for her and this is not a substitution."

 

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I'm new to fastpitch as a daughter is now playing. It seems to me that every association has a batting rule that differs. How do coaches stay up with it all? I surely respect the coaches that can.... confusing to me.

This is one great site to learn from as there are some intelligent people on here who seem to try to get information out to the parents so we can understand.

 

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Justawondering: Welcome to the forum and yes the people of the OFC do try to learn from each other. Also, welcome to fastpitch, travel ball style.

 

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Bretman ... with all due respect because I know you are on top of you umpiring game, are you sure that the same Flex could re-enter a game a 3rd time just because the DP switched out??? That makes no sense to me ... now, if you replaced the original Flex with another Flex that would be another story.

 

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As sure as I can be!

The key points are:

- When the FLEX replaces the DP (*on offense), the DP has left the game.

- The re-entry rule applies to players that have left the game.

- The FLEX has not left the game. She was in the line-up to begin with and she is still in the line-up. Since she never left the game, she cannot be charged with a re-entry.

- The only time the FLEX is considered to have left the game is when the DP replaces her defensively in the field.

(*Added note for clarity. Of course, when the FLEX plays defense for the DP that is the normal application of the rule, not a substitution.)

 

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OK, thanks ... learn something new every day!

 

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It's that time of year for everyone to get educated on this rule.

 

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I think if the rule were to be DP - meaning Deffencesive Player, and Flex - meaning flexible player i.e. can both bat and or play deffense.

Then i think most people would be better able to understand the rule. People keep thinking this very thing, instead of the true meanings: flex means deffencesive player and DP means Designated Player ..... Which is why so many get confussed.......jmho

I think they should just change the meaning of those 2 words

 

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Here are two helpful decriptions of the DP/Flex rule and how it can be used

http://www.fastsports.com/tips/tip25/index.shtml

and from NFHS

DP/FLEX RULE

It is believed that many coaches and umpires still may not completely understand the DP/FLEX rule (3-3-6) since it was passed in 2004. The committee felt another ?refresher? would be appropriate to more fully understand and utilize all the options available with the rule. The DP/FLEX rule was originally adopted because it provides more participation opportunities for student-athletes and more flexibility to coaches.

A. For Coaches ? Basic Rules to Remember. Keep these basic rules in mind:

1. Decide the 10 players you want to be designated as starters: 1) list the nine players you want to have in the batting order on lines 1 through 9; 2) list the name of the remaining player (FLEX) on the 10th line.

2. Fill in the defensive positions and list the player not initially playing defense as the DP.

3. When making lineup changes:

a. The DP cannot play defense only and the FLEX cannot play offense only.

b. When the DP spot in the batting order comes up, either the DP, FLEX or their legal substitutes must bat or run the bases. It is the only offensive spot the DP or FLEX player may hold.

c. The DP can replace anyone on defense any time, any number of times while the FLEX player may replace the DP any time, any number of times.

d. When any of the first nine players listed on the card leaves the batting order, she has left the game and when the FLEX player leaves the game on defense, she has left the game.

B. For Coaches ? Basic Utilization Strategies. The following are two basic strategies a coach might utilize to match the skills of the DP and FLEX players to complement one another. Further examples can be found on the NFHS Web site (www.nfhs.org).

1. Objective: to utilize a fast runner who is a weak hitter (FLEX) to run for the solid hitting DP.

a. Matchup: assuming your pitcher can hit for herself, pair up an solid hitter (DP) with a player of exceptional speed but who is a weak hitter (FLEX).

b. Typical sequence: DP hits safely; FLEX enters to run for her; DP re-enters and hits safely; FLEX enters to run for her; sub #1 hits for DP (since the DP already used her one re-entry), FLEX enters to run for sub #1; sub #1 re-enters and hits safely; FLEX enters to run for sub #1; sub #2 hits safely; FLEX enters to run for her; and so on.

2. Objective: list a power hitter as the FLEX player when you have a platoon of players who will be the DP?s.

a. Matchup: assuming your pitcher can hit for herself, pair up an average player (DP) with a good hitting, but slow runner (FLEX) who also plays defense. Also used for a good hitting pitcher (FLEX) who you do not want running the bases unnecessarily.

b. Typical sequence: as the spot in the batting order comes up, enter the FLEX who hits safely; re-enter the DP to run; enter the FLEX who hits safely; sub #1 enters to run (since the DP already used her one re-entry); enter the FLEX who hits safely; sub #1 re-enters to run; FLEX hits safely; sub #2 enters to run; and so on.