High School Coaches and Pitchers

[CoachTEA]

Okay, I *know* this should be posted in "Rants and Raves" so forgive me in advance, but I am getting really frosted about some High School Coaches will only use one pitcher no what. I am not talking about going for the win --- I totally get that and I have little to no issues there, rather I addressing situations where a team uses or has only one pitcher even when she is tired or the game is meaningless. One of my pitchers is going to get over-used because her HS coach won't even dress the JV pitcher for the varsity games. Really??! They are scheduled for 5 games this week like many other programs, but you are sticking with the kid whether you are winning or losing 20-0! There program is not very good at all and this kid has a solid shot at playing college ball. It isn't going to happen for her with her hapless HS program; it will be with her travel team. A close friend of mine has a DD who can barely lift her right arm at 20 years old because of over-use in high school for 3 years. I am not looking for new rules around innings or pitch counts because every kid is different; I am just looking for some COMMON SENSE from some (not all) coaches. As a former pitcher I know there are days you got it and other days where you don't. Coaches - if you only have one pitcher, develop another one even if just for the inevitable blow-outs. Parents - don't let anyone injure your child. If she is hurting, shut her down!!!

 

[Irish196]

Wow, that stinks. I think if I were the parent I would have to put a stop to that. I have heard so many coaches over the years say that softball isn't like baseball and the girls can't get hurt throwing too much. In one program we were in, the head of the softball part of it even said that same thing to justify a new rule that they put into effect for baseball but not softball. I think many people still need schooling on this issue.

 

[Fairman]

Like any physical activity there is a price to pay for overuse.

5 games in 5 days in the cold maybe alright for a kid that is throwing 80 pitches a game with a ton of popups and ground ball outs, perhaps a senior with tremendous high school & travel ball experience, etc.... This is not most kids and certainly in a struggling program, isn't likely to be this kid.

You can help prevent an injury by icing and a good warmup but more important is to just say no, not my child. Whats he going to do; bench her?

As for the Coach that doesn't even dress his JV pitcher, I wonder what he'll do if your V pitcher twists her ankle in the second inning........? In comes the right fielder that hasn't thrown on 4 years.

Remember that the only effective rehab for overuse is rest. Which will have a negative impact the High Schol season and probably the travel season. When you are with your dd at the rehab clinic in June, you won't find this coach there to lend you a buck or an hour of his valuable time. It will be just you and your dd. He'll be out hurting someone else.

 

[daboss]

Let me chime in for a minute with some extra insight. Cool/cold weather is something all of us struggle with. A proper warm up before a game and maintaining that throughout the game is an issue. Well-trained pitchers have been taught what it takes but their minds are not as wise as the coaches in the dugout. Coaches need to be vigilant about keeping their pitcher warm and loose. Don't rely on a teenage mind to canstantly do the right thing as we all know what the outcome can be. Also, proper mechanics is the secret to longevity. Yes, they normally can go everyday IF they maintain the proper mechanics throughout the course of each inning of each game.

When girls are cold they tend to get stiff in their motion and forces what I refer to as a "closed door" pitch. This is when the girls don't get sideways through the windmill action and the arm rotation happens with the shoulders still square to the target. Muscle memory is telling them "Hey! give me a full circle rotation" and they force their arm through an abnormal rotation. This strains the muscles and burns a lot of energy while each pitch like this gets them that much closer to possible injury. This is why coaches need to be trained in at least the basics of pitching so they can watch for signs and correct the mistakes. You catch it early enough it won't be an issue. While most trained pitchers know better, it's still hard to be aware of the issues when you're spinning your arm so fast and focusing on all the other elements of a pitch.

You can have the greatest pitching instructor in the world--------and most do----------but the kids are still kids and mistakes happen.

Do I agree they should have more than 1 pitcher? Heck YES!!!! Should they use more than 1??? Heck YES!!!! Can they get by with 1??? Of course they can IF they have the foresight to prepare themself for the long season-----and this means both kids and coaches.

 

[hpifm]

You have to realize that "some" HS coaches have very little knowledge of the game and do it for the extra money. HS is also VERY political in their choices of players. The "good old boy" syndrome is prevalent. Very few follow travel ball and are totally unaware of the players backgrounds prior to try-outs. Before I get bashed, remember I said "Some".

 

[fastjay]

c'mon guys, five games in five days is nothing. there must be clear separation between the #1 and the #2 pitcher on the team.

 

[Hilliarddad3]

There should be rules to protect the kids plain and simple. They have maybe four more years of ball after schooling is done and a life to live afterwards. Overuse is an issue, I don't care what anyone says. Hearing how many pitchers have rods in their backs from over use, bad knees, Tommy John Surgery etc......

Pitch or innings per week should be mandatory, this will also make coaches teach the game to the other 8 on the field. Have seen many teams over the years that wouldn't have been successful without that 1 workhorse.....

 

[Outwork]

Let me just say that I HOPE a certain D2 high school team keeps pitching their "ACE" everyday instead of their #2 (by the way their "so called" #2 is going d1 as a P) If they ride their ACE and she can't perform as well come tournament time we likely won't have to face them because his ego.

 

[raidian70]

Just playing the devil's advocate here, but how many games does your "ace" throw on a weekend during travel season? I know that it is popular to bash high school coaches on here, but if we are complaining about 5 games in 5 day during high school season, does that mean throwing more than 2 games in a weekend is bad? I had a travel ball pitcher on my high school team a couple of years ago and we really didn't have anyone else, that could throw in a varsity game. I asked are you okay if you have to throw 5 days in a row before I set our schedule and her comment was, "I throw 6 in a weekend sometimes."

 

[Outwork]

I asked are you okay if you have to throw 5 days in a row before I set our schedule and her comment was, "I throw 6 in a weekend sometimes."

hmmmm, most kids want to do nothing more that make their coaches happy and will tell you what you want to hear.

i'm starting to agree with the other poster that there should be pitch counts for high school softball, but i know the high schools out their with only 1 or two pitchers on their squads would never ever want that to happen! can you image what the state brackets would look like if coaches had to use a "staff?"

 

[Hilliarddad3]

As a parent, but you have to know what your kid is and isn't able to do and at the end of the day protect her from permanent damage. You're the parent, not the coach. And people say "are you going to tell that to the college coach too?" 90% of all HS kids won't be playing college ball, period, so the rules need to be made to ensure the safety of those percent...

There have been kids who's wrists have snapped from overwork too.....

 

[raidian70]

hmmmm, most kids want to do nothing more that make their coaches happy and will tell you what you want to hear.

This completely misses my point. My argument is that overusage goes both ways, but we are always ready to complain about high school coaches while doing the same thing with our travel teams. My point is if we are going to complain about pitching 5 games in 5 days in high school, then our kids should throw no more than 3 games in a weekend for travel ball, 1 each day.

 

[hot corner]

I agree about overuse injuries are a real concern. But complaining about high school coaches overusing their pitchers compared to travel ball is like the kettle calling the pot black.

High School
Girls tend to play 22 to 30 games generally from April to mid May 7 weeks. From Monday to Saturday on avg. that is 3 to 4 games a week. Or 22 to 30 games on 42 playing dates.
(Monday - Saturday 6 playing dates a week times 7 weeks = 42 playing dates.)

Travel Ball
In the same time frame many travel ball teams will 5 to 7 tournaments and depending on how good the team is they will average 5/6 game a weekend. That could mean they play any where from 25 to 40+ from Friday-Sunday and occasionally on a Thursday on 24 playing dates.
(3 playing dates a weekend times 7 weeks = 21 dates plus add couple days for the occasional Thursday so lets say 24 playing dates.)

Now granted in travel ball your ace won't pitch every game. But they generally will pitch 3 games so that is any where from 15 to 21 games in 24 dates.

 

[fastjay]

i wonder how many of the parents complaining about the overuse of the #1 pitcher also happen to be the parents of the #2 pitcher???

 

[Hilliarddad3]

None of mine pitched, just know and saw many that are permanently scarred....the rules should apply to travel as well, especially at younger ages with non informative coaches at those ages that are doing worse harm riding one horse.....

 

[Lenski65]

i wonder how many of the parents complaining about the overuse of the #1 pitcher also happen to be the parents of the #2 pitcher???

That would be ALL of the them fastjay...........

 

[CARDS]

I know of more pitchers hurt during the summer than during HS a lot were injured before they made it to HS.

The workhorses I remember like Schwaeble Anderson, Slatton, Wear, Pearson, and a several others took the ball almost every HS game. Now most of these ladies were also D1 talent and had a team around them.

I do think from a competitive balance perspective having inning restrictions would not be a bad thing.

This would force teams to play D and develop a little O when the stud is not in the circle. I agree there are teams in SW Ohio that are the exception where they have two ladies that are equal but most teams have a significant drop off between pitchers and even fewer have more than one pitcher in a program dedicated enough to carry a team.http://preps.cincinnati.com/Softball/PitchingLeaders?year=2014&sort=ip

If you looked at the HS teams using 2 or more pitchers their records for the most part are not very good. There are some exceptions but most use 2 or more because one cannot get it done so, having inning restrictions would force coaches to pick and choose the when and where they use their ace.
The days of 180+ inning 300+K in a season would be a thing of the past...

 

[coachjwb]

Agree with others that if there needs to be pitching limit rules for high school, that there needs to rules for travel ball as well ... though there is probably more ignorance out there in high school ball than there is in travel ball about overuse. I still hear some people say/imply that you can't get overuse injuries in fastpitch. It would be interesting to see what would happen at all levels if all of a sudden rules were put in place. I would wager to say that many teams wouldn't have enough pitchers. If that was the case, then the sport would either die or more pitchers would have to be developed. Of course if most pitchers were being developed at the younger travel levels like there is in boys' baseball travel, then there eventually would be more pitchers in high school and college ball.

And it does happen in college ball too. My daughter's sophomore year, she threw 185 innings in a 6 week period (not counting the 2 weeks off the team had between their spring break trip and their first games when they came back north). She never complained about it because she was getting a chance to live a dream, but I can tell you that her body was shot when that season ended. Thankfully she wasn't playing travel ball then, and had lot's of time to recover.

 

[brownsfan]

Daboss and fanandfun made a lot of great points.

As a pitchers dad, am I concerned if my daughter goes through a season overused?no. Parents and coaches of younger ages groups all talk speed. My 10U pitcher throws 50+ MPH, blah, blah, blah. My dd?s second pitching coach named Marie Shaver told us one thing, you?re daughter will be slow at first. We?re going to develop her legs as they take the most time to develop. We can do the shortcut and develop the shoulder as there?s less muscle mass to develop, but she?ll blow out her shoulder or have overuse injuries by high school. Sure enough, when she was 10U she was slower than most pitchers. I think she threw 38 while they were coaches saying my ace throws 52. Constantly seeing that and a 10U parent; I wanted to go the shortcut route after seeing those posts and glad I didn?t. I think maybe 5 pitchers from when she was 10U are pitching, and maybe one of those flamethrowers at 10U are still pitching.

Why is it important to develop those legs at such a young age? The shoulder already has enough force being excerpted from it with the arm whip. If a girl drives out from the rubber to the edge of the circle BUT does not finish driving the legs together, that shoulder has even more pressure pushed against it as it needs to absorb the stopping of the body while in the motion of throwing. If a girl drives the legs together, the legs absorb most of the energy of stopping and allow the arm whip to finish more naturally. If a girl doesn?t drive to the edge of a circle, that?s even more pressure on the shoulder to throw hard. That?s why it?s so important at young ages to teach the girls the proper mechanics and development. Everyone places emphasis on not illegal pitching at a young age, why not this as well? And I won?t even go into the idea of using weighted balls yet at younger ages.

Also, everyone talks about the aspects of multi-sport athletes. If a girl plays HS softball, travel softball, volleyball, and basketball; where?s the rest for the shoulder? How don?t care how you slice it, that?s a lot of overuse on the shoulder AS A WHOLE. If she runs cross-country instead of v-ball, where?s the rest for the knees and ankles. How pitchers actually ice for 20 minutes after a game? How many pitchers ice after pitching game one at 8AM in a travel game knowing they will be pitching again at 6 PM the same day? Common sense people. And you want the government to regulate pitched innings?

I do love the fact that colleges are seeing the importance of using staffs and not one pitcher mainly. It does help in the overall health of the pitcher because by that time she has pitched close to 10 years as a freshman in college (8U being the start year). But it wasn?t the government that helped these coaches, it was their common sense.
So don?t just blame the high school coach for overuse.

 

[Outwork]

i wonder how many of the parents complaining about the overuse of the #1 pitcher also happen to be the parents of the #2 pitcher???

spoken like a daddy ball coach of a supposed #1 pitcher. And MINE is not a pitcher, she's a CF.