Hitting and Hitters Discussion Hips leading your Hitting

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Hey Parma, it basically means this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e7p6nvA6po&feature=related

Len

Nice video.

 

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Dang ! I thought I was on baseball debate HI there for a moment! It is all about who can BS who the best instead of teaching.

 

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Dang ! I thought I was on baseball debate HI there for a moment! It is all about who can BS who the best instead of teaching.

BS'ing?? Can you cite some references to your claim because personally I do not see anywhere on this thread where BS'ing occurred, or maybe I do not understand the definition of BS'ing?

Len

 

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Calm down Len. This is a reference to those on the baseball forums that are all talk and no teach! Not directed to anyone on this site and think god we don't have that issue here.

 

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I think all this snow and not being able to even see an outdoor softball field is starting to get to Len :lmao:

 

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Calm down Len. This is a reference to those on the baseball forums that are all talk and no teach! Not directed to anyone on this site and think god we don't have that issue here.

Sorry....I didn't understand your post. I wasn't upset....more like confused because I did not know you were talking about another forum. It's all good.


And Uber.....Yeah, the snow and steely skies are starting to pi$$ me off. :lmao:

I hate winter......

Len

 

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I read the baseball sites for entertainment. I should have been more specific but after watching Obama on Fox, it ruined me on direct answers?.

 

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Sorry....I didn't understand your post. I wasn't upset....more like confused because I did not know you were talking about another forum. It's all good.


And Uber.....Yeah, the snow and steely skies are starting to pi$$ me off. :lmao:

I hate winter......

Len

Len we finally agree on something! :lmao:

 

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Len we finally agree on something! :lmao:

Agree to the fact that I'm a confused individual or the we both hate winter......

Len

 

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Does that mean you don't like your new toy the wife got you this winter Or it is because you are using it too much in all this snow?. See I trained mine to use the snow blower while I'm at work.

 

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Agree to the fact that I'm a confused individual or the we both hate winter......

Len

We absolutely hate winter!

 

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First I would just like to say, I had no intention of sparking the great debate on the best way of hitting. Nor did I ever say anything negative about Langenfields abilities.

I do however, still believe that straighlegs comment is a little misleading. Watch her back elbow it moves as soon as the hips do. It is connected and that is where I believe the power you are speaking of comes from. I could leave my hands back all day and open my hips, but if I am not connected to my lower half, then I am not going to be powerful.

Now as for making this swing more powerful. Keeping everything else the same picuture her going to toe touch and driving with the back leg to turn the hip????

" I didn't teach Crystl how to hit.... I helped her hit it harder!!"" - Howard Carrier

I have heard him say it 100 times

If you watch this video her drive of the footwork / back hip start a split second before the hands move, then she turns connected with hands elbow connected to the hip on the turn.

What most rec/travel girls do is the opposite starting the hands a split second ahead of the lower half.
Then it ends up more of a upper dominate swing verses a lower body dominate swing.

That is how I see it and most of these posts are so close to saying the same thing.

I am not spliting hairs here.

Just to try and teach a bottom first dominate swing.



Straightleg

 

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This is what I meant by misunderstanding. Straightleg never mentions the elbow, he mentions the hands. This was never a thread about a debate on the best way of hitting. Straightleg simply makes a statement about more power in a swing. Also, the elbow does not start as soon as the hips turn. There is a very slight delay which makes sense considering the body is not a solid rigid system. The elbow does catch up quickly however in getting connected. This is why I stated that Howard would not dispute Straightleg's claim, and he did not because he understood what Straightleg meant.
In your second post you contradict yourself. The first thing you state is:

The second thing you state is:

I believe the first statement to be false but the part in the parenthesis of the second statement to be true. In all honesty I have a tough time believing that Miss Bustos claims to start the elbow before the hips in order to produce more power. I hope she's not saying that because it is simply not true. Starting the elbow before the hips would be a reduction in torque, hence a reduction in angular momentum, and the result would be a reduction in bat speed creating less power, because the hitter would be uncoiling the upper part of the body before uncoiling the lower part of the body. And finally, Howard also states in one of his posts "The shoulders and arms, following the lead of the hips" which means that the hips do indeed lead the forward swing after heal plant, therefore Straightleg's statement is not misleading, and that is coming from the very hitting instructor you help at clinics.
　
Len
　
　

I dont think I contradicted myself at all here. the first comment was referring to a demonstration That Crystl does at her clinic ie this post by Thuders Dad

"It is my understanding that the back elbow leads the back hip slightly as the hitter goes into connection. Crystl did a demonstration with me for my team where she had my back elbow behind my hip at connection. She placed one hand on the knob of my bat and told me to push as hard as I could. I am 6'3" and 290 lbs (depending on what truck scale I use) and I could not budge the bat 1". Believe me, I was trying to push as hard as I could. I then switched positions to my back elbow leading my back hip and repeated the effort and shoved her back 3'."

and the second post was describing what is happening in the swing. I was not saying that both were correct.

I may not descibe in words on a post exactly perfect for everyone to inturpet, but I will say this as my WHOLE POINT!. If Langenfield goes to toe touch and she stays closed for a little longer (meaning she does not lead with her hips) and everything else stays the same... She will hit this ball harder!! That is why I first disagreed with and still do disagree with Straightleg that leading with your hips increases power.

Watch the video again everybody and you tell me if that back elbow does not start at the exact time her hips do. As far as we can see with the naked eye to call it exact?

I would be interested in seeing several of Langenfields at bats and see if she opens ealry everytime? even if she does not go to toe touch, are there occasions where she moves the elbow first then the hips?? We are just looking at one at bat here? Im not saying that she does, but that would be interesting.....

 

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I dont think I contradicted myself at all here. the first comment was referring to a demonstration That Crystl does at her clinic ie this post by Thuders Dad

Actually, the first comment was the beginning sentence of your post and it was a statement without prefacing it at all.

"It is my understanding that the back elbow leads the back hip slightly as the hitter goes into connection. Crystl did a demonstration with me for my team where she had my back elbow behind my hip at connection. She placed one hand on the knob of my bat and told me to push as hard as I could. I am 6'3" and 290 lbs (depending on what truck scale I use) and I could not budge the bat 1". Believe me, I was trying to push as hard as I could. I then switched positions to my back elbow leading my back hip and repeated the effort and shoved her back 3'."

If the elbow is behind the hip then technically the hitter is not yet actually at good connection. Also, it makes sense that she could stop you from swinging at this point because good recoil has not yet taken place....but to be honest with you nobody can hit from that posture so I do not know what sense that experiment holds...unless I am picturing it wrong in my head.

and the second post was describing what is happening in the swing. I was not saying that both were correct.

Okay......if you say so then I believe you.

I may not descibe in words on a post exactly perfect for everyone to inturpet, but I will say this as my WHOLE POINT!. If Langenfield goes to toe touch and she stays closed for a little longer (meaning she does not lead with her hips) and everything else stays the same... She will hit this ball harder!! That is why I first disagreed with and still do disagree with Straightleg that leading with your hips increases power.

Not only do you disagree with Straightleg, you also disagree with Howard and the actual physical science of increasing power of the swing.

Watch the video again everybody and you tell me if that back elbow does not start at the exact time her hips do. As far as we can see with the naked eye to call it exact?

This is a bit of an optical illusion. The elbow itself is not moving, rather the upper body is moving. The actual slotting of the elbow (physically moving the elbow) occurs after the start of hip rotation.

I would be interested in seeing several of Langenfields at bats and see if she opens ealry everytime? even if she does not go to toe touch, are there occasions where she moves the elbow first then the hips?? We are just looking at one at bat here? Im not saying that she does, but that would be interesting.....

I bet that if you watched her in batting practice her hips would start before her hands and elbow every time. This girl is an elite player with an elite, very powerful swing.

Len

 

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Len

We have allot in common with hitting. Everything you posted about hitting above I agree with.



Straightleg

 

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Just to clairify my previous post:
The position that Crystl had me in, my hips were already totally engaged and my belly button would be pointing at the ball where contact would be made. If I was swinging full go, my hips would have started first, then the back elbow would have caught up and been even with, or slightly leading, the back hip. I believe a good swing starts from the ground up, and not the arms down.
Toe touch, "Elvis move", Elbows, Knob, Contact, Extention, Follow through...

 

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/If the elbow is behind the hip then technically the hitter is not yet actually at good connection. Also, it makes sense that she could stop you from swinging at this point because good recoil has not yet taken place....but to be honest with you nobody can hit from that posture so I do not know what sense that experiment holds.../ -Lenski's post

I dont know, maybe you should ask Crystl why she does this at all of her clinics then?
But here is one guess: young player: "Hey Coach Lenski, I leave my hands back and lead with my hips but I dont feel stronger..... Lenski: well that's because you didn't bring the elbow through to connection.. nobody can hit from that posture" Young Player: " Oh so you mean If I bring my back elbow through with my hip I can be more powerful.. well you didn't say that you just said that if I keep my hands back and lead with my hips I would have more power?"


"This is a bit of an optical illusion. The elbow itself is not moving, rather the upper body is moving." -Lenski's post

Really... an optical illusion, so now you are even discrediting what your own eyes see??

"The actual slotting of the elbow (physically moving the elbow) occurs after the start of hip rotation. " -Lenskis' post

IMO, on this particular swing, Langenfield starts her elbow with her hips (not an illusion), then opens a little too much before she gets connected ( where I see a little loss in power) then quickly recovers resulting in nice at bat. I'll give you a couple reasons why I have this opinion:


1) "This girl is an elite player with an elite, very powerful swing." -Lenski

2)As a result of this little debate I took the time to watch many other Elite players with powerful swings and studied their hips and back elbow. I watched many, including Griffey, Manny, Utley ,Chipper, Bonds, Pujols, Pedroia, Bustos.. The list goes on. Not a single one opened their hips like Langenfield, but all were either simultaneously moving the elbow with the hip or moving the elbow just before the hip. So I concluded that if opening the hips early, or leading with the hips brought more power I would have seen someone doing this, but I did not.

Please if you are following this little argument then dont take my word for it, just go to you tube and search for players hitting videos, there will be all these analysis' of them. You dont have to listen or agree with all the analysis, just watch for yourself and see how many begin with the elbow first or atleast move the hips at same time as the elbow. See if you see any that open the hips up to the degree that langenfeild does before the elbow gets through. And I didn't see David Copperfield in any of the videos so no Illusions here.

This is why it would be interesting to find other video of Langenfiled swinging... because she is an awesome player with an awesome swing!! And who knows, It may just show her hips staying closed just a little longer and her hitting the ball a little farther!!

 

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Crush...in all honesty you can think whatever you want. I just happen to agree with Gerry, Howard, Klump, and others. Maybe the next time you help Howard at a clinic, he can show you how the hips start first, followed by upper body turn (read uncoil), followed by (now this is where the elbow is physically being moved) the slotting of the elbow in order to get connected, or you can dispute it completely and tell Howard he is wrong. I'm good with any way you want to go with this...it's your belief.

Len

 

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Just to clairify my previous post:
The position that Crystl had me in, my hips were already totally engaged and my belly button would be pointing at the ball where contact would be made.

Now this I understand. You definitely do not want your back elbow behind the hip at this point of the swing.

Len

 

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/If the elbow is behind the hip then technically the hitter is not yet actually at good connection. Also, it makes sense that she could stop you from swinging at this point because good recoil has not yet taken place....but to be honest with you nobody can hit from that posture so I do not know what sense that experiment holds.../ -Lenski's post

I dont know, maybe you should ask Crystl why she does this at all of her clinics then?
But here is one guess: young player: "Hey Coach Lenski, I leave my hands back and lead with my hips but I dont feel stronger..... Lenski: well that's because you didn't bring the elbow through to connection.. nobody can hit from that posture" Young Player: " Oh so you mean If I bring my back elbow through with my hip I can be more powerful.. well you didn't say that you just said that if I keep my hands back and lead with my hips I would have more power?"


"This is a bit of an optical illusion. The elbow itself is not moving, rather the upper body is moving." -Lenski's post

Really... an optical illusion, so now you are even discrediting what your own eyes see??

"The actual slotting of the elbow (physically moving the elbow) occurs after the start of hip rotation. " -Lenskis' post

IMO, on this particular swing, Langenfield starts her elbow with her hips (not an illusion), then opens a little too much before she gets connected ( where I see a little loss in power) then quickly recovers resulting in nice at bat. I'll give you a couple reasons why I have this opinion:


1) "This girl is an elite player with an elite, very powerful swing." -Lenski

2)As a result of this little debate I took the time to watch many other Elite players with powerful swings and studied their hips and back elbow. I watched many, including Griffey, Manny, Utley ,Chipper, Bonds, Pujols, Pedroia, Bustos.. The list goes on. Not a single one opened their hips like Langenfield, but all were either simultaneously moving the elbow with the hip or moving the elbow just before the hip. So I concluded that if opening the hips early, or leading with the hips brought more power I would have seen someone doing this, but I did not.

Please if you are following this little argument then dont take my word for it, just go to you tube and search for players hitting videos, there will be all these analysis' of them. You dont have to listen or agree with all the analysis, just watch for yourself and see how many begin with the elbow first or atleast move the hips at same time as the elbow. See if you see any that open the hips up to the degree that langenfeild does before the elbow gets through. And I didn't see David Copperfield in any of the videos so no Illusions here.

This is why it would be interesting to find other video of Langenfiled swinging... because she is an awesome player with an awesome swing!! And who knows, It may just show her hips staying closed just a little longer and her hitting the ball a little farther!!

I am confussed, I have read this several times and i am not sure who's side he his on, or just what he is trying to say on which or whaat is right...