Pitching and Pitchers Discussion How long do you think?

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Who is going to win the battle... a teenager wanting to play regardless of tired or just sore but not hurt? or a coach telling her to pitch? I know of kids that were pitchers that had rods installed in their backs, coincidence on being pitchers? another one in Florida that was a pitcher as well, another with Tommy John Surgery along with another that had a snapped bone, all here in Central OH....

Coincidence on pitching or it just comes with the turf? When do the kids, yes under 18 is a kid get protected?

 

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Just an FYI ... high school players are only allowed to play those 27 games in 23 days. In other words, if they don't play any doubleheaders, they can only play 23 games, which is probably a good thing for one pitcher teams. And agree with Hilliarddad ... if a kid's team needs them or if a coach tells them to do something, 99% of them are going to go out there and do it, regardless of how they are feeling and what their body or their parents are telling them.

 

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If you are in favor of it in the high school season, should we limit it in the summer as well? This season, my #2 pitcher was hurt, so I went to my #1 and asked her if she could throw both ends of a double header. Her response, "I throw 4 games a day during travel ball, 2 won't be a problem." I am not sure high school is where the problem is if this is a common travel occurance.

 

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It's a proven fact that teenager's brains aren't fully developed so they aren't able to gauge risk the way a fully formed adult brain is. Therefore to say that a teen is able to determine what is best for herself is kind of silly. I know my dd had pitched 3 full 7 inning games and had blisters bleeding on her hands everytime she pitched, a huge blister on her stride toe from pushing off, and overall muscle soreness but she wouldn't tell the coach she needed a break. She felt too guilty because everyone told her that the team had no chance of winning without her.

 

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If you are in favor of it in the high school season, should we limit it in the summer as well? This season, my #2 pitcher was hurt, so I went to my #1 and asked her if she could throw both ends of a double header. Her response, "I throw 4 games a day during travel ball, 2 won't be a problem." I am not sure high school is where the problem is if this is a common travel occurance.

This statement had me asking the same questions on this topic. My daughter was a part-time pitcher, never #1. I'm a coach and pitching instructor. I know what we do in the off season to prepare for spring and summer. I'm aware of what some others do as well. Most of the school pitchers I know are fine with the system as it is and very capable of pitching the number of games a week including double headers. The only exceptions are young ladies, in my opinion, have mechanical issues on a regular basis. I know before the school season is over, they need a break from a few games to rest. Maybe they'd have these same problems even if they changed their form, who knows. The few pitchers I would worry about are the ones throwing 10+ inning games in a day. I'd worry about them anyway, just because it wears on any person to throw that much at one session.

I wonder if we are being sesnsitive to an issue that's really not an issue in terms of school ball. I believe overall, most pitchers are fine with things as they are. Perhaps a state wide study over a season or 2 will give everyone a different perspective on the subject. I believe a study to be the best course of action. Let's have each coach report on their pitcher's issues by way of survey and see if this truly is a problem.

While we may find school ball to be okay, other sanctioning bodies may need to consider restrictions but I honestly doubt they will make a ruling. The thought of limiting the pitching duties would probably result in less pitchers available and cut the number of teams registering to play summer ball. They won't take the financial hit in my opinion.

 

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Here is the link to the article.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/sports/2012/04/24/tender-arms.html

I believe that we should have pitch limits in high school and travel ball in order to protect these players from over use. Any injury from repetitive stress can only be cured by rest, rehab and time off. I am asking for some kind of common sense rules that would prevent a TB coach form throwing a kid 6 games in a weekend (it happens). I am just asking for the adults to step up and bring a little sanity to the game.

There is absolutely no reason to allow this kind of child abuse to continue.

 

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Why is it that there are limits for boys in baseball, but not girls in softball. The arguement I always heard was that the underhand motion is a natural motion, versus the overhand motion in baseball. Coach Dorsey and the article point out that this arguement no longer holds true and the motion of pitching does put strain on the arm. You can and should limit both HS and Travel pitchers. In baseball (league), kids can only throw so many pitches per week (75) and they require a set period of rest if they throw over 25 pitches (more rest the more pitches) (both teams track pitch count and report them. In tournaments, kids can only throw a set number of outs per day and tournament. Yes this requires you to pitch kids you normally may not want to and at times cost you games/tournaments, but the kids future and health should be the number 1 concern. Here is the regulation for HS baseball: If we can do it in baseball, why not softball....And no I am not a parent of a pitcher.. And it will also sort out who the best "TEAM" is in softball and not who has only the "BEST PITCHER" , which is what we should be doing.

1.7) No player may pitch in more than 10 innings in a three day period. Any part of an​

inning counts as one inning. (Regular season and tournament games)

 

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Here is the link to the article.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/sports/2012/04/24/tender-arms.html

I believe that we should have pitch limits in high school and travel ball in order to protect these players from over use. Any injury from repetitive stress can only be cured by rest, rehab and time off. I am asking for some kind of common sense rules that would prevent a TB coach form throwing a kid 6 games in a weekend (it happens). I am just asking for the adults to step up and bring a little sanity to the game.

There is absolutely no reason to allow this kind of child abuse to continue.

I read the article for the first time today. I am going to try to find the studies that these two groups quote. I thought the article would be more in depth. Simply quoting a study without giving any detail really doesn't help me form an opinion. I will say this is the first time I have ever heard that the softball and baseball pitching motion caused the same stress on the shoulder. Not sure that I buy that totally.

We had a pitcher that was on her way to being a dominant pitcher at 14u but had severe back issues. It ended up being a structural problem that was agrevated by pitching - so we shut her down perminately. Fortunately we have never had any other USE injury issues with pitchers - catchers yes. Someone said this earlier - and I totally concur. Phyiscal training is very important these days. Other sports, mostly boys sports, have shown us the need to get and keep athletes bodies well conditioned. Colleges do it, now it is up to us at the youth level to help the players understand the benefits. Pitchers, catchers, hitters - they all need strengthing work to perform at a high level and to stay stress injury free.

 

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Limiting innings is NOT the answer, though I don't know what the answer is and doubt there even is an answer. The kids who want to be good will work very hard at it. There is no such thing as a stud pitcher that just fell out of bed able to pitch at a high level, they have to throw a lot! Same thing with a hitter. The swings they make in a game are just a fraction of what they do in practice. To me, it's the practice that produces the majority of the wear and tear. Some can take it and be very good at the sport. Some can't and never reach their potential.

A while back someone posted something about how many hours of work it takes to be world class elite at something. It's a lot of time (was it something like 10,000 hours?) and it will take it's toll. I suspect that very few if any serious athletes get through their career without having some sort of lingering issue with their bodies as they age. That said, how many regret the work (and damage) they did to get there? You can say the kid can't make the decision themselves, but if you as a parent don't allow it until the kid can decide for themselves, then it's too late to even try.

Any sort of sports career is a risk. The better the player wants to be, the higher the risk of injury. Is it child abuse to let a kid out in the sun? Take a kid someplace in a car? Climbing trees? Playing tag? Take a bath? Kids can and do get hurt and even killed doing these things all the time. Life is a risk, or you can just go hide in a bunker.

I suppose MY answer would be the smart coach and the smart player have to know when enough is enough. There is no one size fits all answer to that question, nor should there be.

PS This is coming from a pitcher's dad who was a number 3, a 2, and a 1 at various times. A kid who also has had stress fractures in her back and plenty of sore arms over the years. And who also holds a bunch of school records in college. Yes, there was a price to pay and I am sure she thinks "Was it worth it?" is a ridiculous question!

 

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I don't buy the story that it's the same stress in baseball and softball. Baseball has a big history of pitching injuries and has been studied to death, thus at the major league level they limit pitches. Lot's of boys have blown out their arms by pitching too much and ended their careers. Seems to me it is much much much more rare in softball. More often than not, a softball pitcher will hurt their arm throwing overhand, not underhand.

 

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Eric ... agree with you that any comparisons to baseball need to recognize that it is a different motion and issue for sure. And I know that my daughter wouldn't ever question if it was worth it either. To some others' points, I also acknowledge that travel ball can be even "worse". I think we probably do need more studies to understand the impact better. I just think a lot of coaches and administrators are more or less burying their heads in the sand on the subject, and that it's likely that someday more will be known and rules will then be set up to limit it. Just my humble opinion ...

 

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I'm glad to have provoked peoples thoughts on this. Interesting on how many pitchers parents somewhat agree.....

Keep it going... someone find some studies, or think of pitchers with arm, back or knee injuries......

 

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It's a proven fact that teenager's brains aren't fully developed so they aren't able to gauge risk the way a fully formed adult brain is. Therefore to say that a teen is able to determine what is best for herself is kind of silly.

And that's where parents come into play. My dd also has a curfew even though she is 18.

 

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I agree it needs to be and will be studied more over time. There are ways (many are likely unknown yet) to minimize the impact of serious training, but there will always be some negative impact. Undoubtedly, nearly every HS and college team has had some sort of injury this year, many to pitchers from overuse. Again, some can do it, some get hurt trying, and many get back up and try again. I do think that's the price of admission.

Like most good things in life, there are some sacrifices to be made to get there. It should be up to the individual to decide what is worthwhile to reach their goals. Doing too much and getting hurt doesn't further those goals and thus of course should be avioded. Even so, it will always be a possibility if your goal is to be as good as you can.

 

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It's a proven fact that teenager's brains aren't fully developed so they aren't able to gauge risk the way a fully formed adult brain is. Therefore to say that a teen is able to determine what is best for herself is kind of silly.


And that's where parents come into play. My dd also has a curfew even though she is 18.

The question is, where does one draw the line? If we are to put safety above all, then nobody should be playing. Parents have a responsibility to set reasonable limits, but again that should be defined by them. Some parents may choose to not allow pitching at all, and that's perfectly fine. Some choose to pitch and that's fine too. THEY made that decision, not someone in "authority".

What may be too much to one kid, may well not be too much for another. Is it a bad thing for a kid to be able to outwork their opposition and come out ahead?

 

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[FONT=Tahoma, Calibri, Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif]As a parent of a pitcher, it is MY job to communicate with her and if she experiences pain or if I see that pitching is causing any physical problem, I will step in...if needed. Who is going to make these rules?? Do we then want rules on how many innings a catcher can catch, and a short stop can field?? Common sense, that is all that is needed.
Anything more than that, and the competitive nature of the game is in the hands of the rule makers, and who wants that? [/FONT]

 

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As a parent of a pitcher, it is MY job to communicate with her and if she experiences pain or if I see that pitching is causing any physical problem, I will step in...if needed. Who is going to make these rules?? Do we then want rules on how many innings a catcher can catch, and a short stop can field?? Common sense, that is all that is needed.
Anything more than that, and the competitive nature of the game is in the hands of the rule makers, and who wants that?

!!!!!!

 

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The arguement that girls pitch 3 travel ball games in one day is a little misleading. Due to time limits, most TB games end up only being 5 innings long. My main argument against timed games is if games were all seven innings long, then teams couldnt keep running their stud pitcher out there every game and there would be more competitive balance.

I dont have a problem with inning limits at the younger age groups, I think too many girls never even get the chance to pitch at a young age cause 1 or 2 girls get all the innings. Some girls who might have been great were never given a chance.

I think 21 innings a week (3 games) would be more than reasonable at the high school level.

 

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That is true about the time limit thing but they are also playing more than 3 games in a weekend. They are playing 5-6 games and depending on the tournament and how good the team is they may play more.

 

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I would like to know how such a thing would be enforced at the travel level. I'm still waiting to see actual enforcement of ACE and Background check cards.

I would prefer to see some education in the travel community and self-government opposed to more rules. Careful what you wish for!