Pitching and Pitchers Discussion How long do you think?

default

default

Member
IMHO - if you legislate the innings for pitchers because you are worried about overuse/stress injuries you also need to legislate innings for catchers. I have no facts to back this next statement, but I will make it anyway - there are more long term, career ending injuries to catchers than there are to pitchers.

Since we are on the legislation bandwagon - how about addressing the ball, bat, bases, shoes and fences. Again, without facts to back this up I would bet these things cause many, many, many more injuries than pitchers innings do. And in most cases, besides the obvious back related issues, these injuries are far more debilitating. But we all know why these won't get addressed.
 
default

default

Member
I don't buy the story that it's the same stress in baseball and softball. Baseball has a big history of pitching injuries and has been studied to death, thus at the major league level they limit pitches. Lot's of boys have blown out their arms by pitching too much and ended their careers. Seems to me it is much much much more rare in softball. More often than not, a softball pitcher will hurt their arm throwing overhand, not underhand.

The Baseball throw/pitch IS different than the windmill in multiple ways. In regards to the shoulder, the supraspinatus tendon is impinged under the acromion process during the acceleration phase of throwing, thus increasing the chance of rotator cuff strain. As the arm/rotator cuff tires, the shoulder joint becomes more unstable, thus increasing glenohumeral joint translation during phase 2 and 3 of throwing, thus increasing the chance of labral tearing. During the acceleration phase the shoulder is maximally externally rotated and abducted thus putting tremendous strain on the anterior glenohumeral ligaments, thus increasing the chance of capsular instability.
In regards to the elbow, particularly during the acceleration phase, the forces are concentrated primarily on humeral torque putting tremendous strain on the medial ulnohumeral ligaments with the elbow bent at 90 degrees. These ligaments will attenuate and even rupture at times, either requiring reconstruction surgery (Tommy John) or ending the athletes pitching career.
While the forces are also high on the arm of a windmill pitcher, they do not occur either at the same time in the throwing cycle, and the elbow position at the time of acceleration is extended, rather than flexed, thus causing less force across the ligament during acceleration. During the acceleration phase of the windmill, the supraspinatus tendon is actually being directed away from the acromion, thus reducing impingement on the rotator cuff.
What does this physiology mean? With proper mechanics the arm is relatively spared from the forces seen in overhand throwing. When injuries occurs, it may be due to OVERALL body and mental fatigue, thus leading to a breakdown in mechanics, and eventual injury. In a perfect world an athlete and parent should have enough common sense to recognize this fatigue. When an athlete is blinded by by an overzealous coach, semi- irrational parent, or even from their own desire to overtrain-overpitch, the body can become vulnerable to injury. My DD is a pitcher who has had injuries, and I have been able to trace it's origins down to one of the 3 reasons mentioned in the previous sentence--believe me- it is humbling.
 
default

default

Member
I'm stepping out of this ... I still feel the same way and thought it was a good discussion with points on both sides, until people started making smart*** and sarcastic comments about using bubble-wrap and limiting all sports, etc. Yes, any player in pretty much any sport can be injured, and we haven't even addressed the issue here of how dangerous a position the fastpitch pitcher has especially with the bats of today. That's not what this discussion was about. Clearly the softball pitcher in today's world is the one position putting a huge amount of stress on one part of their body constantly thereby risking it to injury. The closest and only valid comparison in my mind in all of sport that I am aware of is to boys' baseball pitchers where there are already limits in place at various levels, where there is a ton more of available pitchers out there, and where coaches and administrators have long recognized the injury dangers. To be honest, if you haven't coached fastpitch pitchers yourself or have one as a child, you have no business even being involved in this discussion.
 
default

default

Member
Why is it that people are constantly asking for things to be regulated by some board or group or committee?If parents/players/coaches used their own brains, all would be fine. Personal accountability. Our society has this insane obsession with worrying about being safe every minute of every day. The bubble wrap comments are not out of line..it demonstrates the rediculousness of it all.
 
default

default

Member
Gumby ... we agree on one thing ... if people did use their brains all the time, everything would be fine ...
 
default

default

Member
Another sport with a limit example, wrestlers can only have so many matches in a day which must be separated by a certain length of time.
Yet they practice for 2 hours 5 days a week usually in a room with a thermostat set to 88F only to head out to the local sauna afterwards in their plastic suits to lose six pounds in 2 days. Matches and tournaments are the easy part....a nice cool gym, a concession stand, a day not to worry about your weight for once, and time to see if any ladies are actually watching the sport. No offense intended, but I see very little correlation between softball pitching and having your right arm relocated to the other side of your left shoulder blade on a daily basis in wrestling.
 
default

default

Member
I got this off the net and hope it helps. Howard

"The purpose of the comparison is for qualitative analysis of the experienced during underhand pitching. Since baseball pitching studies used male subjects and the current study used female subjects, musculoskeletal and social differences between genders must be recognized. Typically, a female's upper torso and arms possess less muscle mass and strength than the male. At the elbow, the carrying angle is larger, and there is often more ligamentous laxity in the female. Grip strength and hand sizes are usually less for women. While a starting baseball pitcher seldom pitches in a game without 3-4 days of rest, a female windmill pitcher may pitch 2 days in a row or twice in one day during a tournament.


The injury in windmill pitching is attributed to poor mechanics and occurs as the medial elbow contacts the hip just before ball release."
 
default

default

Member
Catchers get injured WAY more than pitchers and put more strain on their entire body than pitchers put on their arms. I know many more catchers who have sustained career ending injuries than pitchers who have arm problems. They deal with bad knees, broken backs, broken pelvises, broken hands and fingers, etc.... Should we cap their innings as well?
 
default

default

Member
This discussion happens eery year or so and it always comes down to one side saying that our dd's are superwomen and **** it up and the other side saying lets not hurt our darlings by overuse. Then the first side trots out the sanctity of the game and no changes are permitted and the other references some scientific study.... and on and on and on we go. At the end of the thread we are all exhausted and nothing has changed.

Here is a line from the Pittsburgh Tribune Review.
XXXX, in her third varsity season and dealing with arm soreness, has begun to share mound duties with little-used senior YYYYYY.

Pitcher XXXX was an outstanding pitcher last year in TB. She will be struggling with arm troubles for the rest of her life. She will be unlikely to pitch successfully in college and will be lightly recruited. This is the sad case you don't hear about. Her senior year when she should be dominating is a washout, never to be recovered.

These overuse injuries are preventable. Do NOT expect a coach to protect your dd. (if you find one that is concerned then hang on to them) The sanctioning bodies will not protect these athletes. The players are competitors and want to please their coach, do it for the team, be tough. They are just kids.

You must step up and be the parent. Just say no. Learn your dd's limits and pay attention to her, she won't tell you, you have to look for clues; 5 games in a weekend is to many; 3 games in 3 days is to much; take a break. Buy a handheld radar, if she drops off- its a clue. She limps or flexes her shoulder its a clue. Use ice after every game and practice. Pay attention to the warmup. Of course every kid is different and as she ages she will get stronger. Do not only focus on the arm because the neck, the back, the legs and ankles are also venerable to an overuse type injury.

When she is hurt, the main rehab is rest. Force her to do it. However, you won;t find that TB or High School coach coming to her rehab sessions, just you and her and a very lonely road back to being healthy. These overuse injuries are preventable.
 
default

default

Member
To be honest, if you haven't coached fastpitch pitchers yourself or have one as a child, you have no business even being involved in this discussion.

coachjwb - I would venture a guess and say there are many people out there that don't fit your criteria, but who can add a lot to the discussion. I bet the people doing these studies don't have pitchers under their wings. Should we not listen to there results or opinions?

If I were a parent of a pitcher I would be MUCH more concerned with batted balls than overuse. I could control over use. I can't field a ball at less than 48 ft away after exiting a bat at over 100mph for her.
 
default

default

Member
Mark ... of course any experts who have studied this can add to the discussion ... didn't intend to exclude them. And I agree that batted balls have always concerned me more as they are more dangerous and potentially devastating to pitchers. While my DD came up during a time when wearing face masks was not popular and/or was looked down on, I am very glad the 12-U's I help coach today all wear them, and I think it will be a major step forward the day when at least all pitchers and corner infielders are required to use them. But to the point of this thread, I do believe that someday overuse will and probably should be regulated ... the only question to me is what is the right level of regulation, and any research/studies will probably be helpful in deciding this level.
 
default

default

Member
I'm a pitcher's mom and believe that putting limits on innings or games per week will hurt HS softball in general........at first. My theory is, most (high school) teams only have 1 or 2 solid pitchers so until the pool is built up, it will hurt teams a lot. They will be putting girls in to pitch that aren't truly ready for that level and will definitely increase the defensive game. If a team only has 2 pitchers at all and they are limited to # of innings or games, then a lot of games will end in a forfeit because there won't be anyone that can pitch for the team. Some schools will not have a JV due to it because all possible pitchers will have to go to Varsity. At the travel level, I don't see it effecting it as much since many teams have 4 or more pitchers. As I said, it will only be for a few years, because this would force communities to increase the number of pitchers at the younger ages in order to supply their area high school later - this would be a positive thing either way......always want more pitchers no matter what. ;)

Now with all that said, I don't see pitching 7 innings a day (5 nights a week) as really being too much for the average HS pitcher, but pitching 5 or more games in a weekend at the travel level could really do some harm to young arms. So I can see putting some type of limit on games or innings per week at the younger level as a benefit to kids. This would also start to increase the number of pitchers for HS teams as the years go on. Something to consider.
 
default

default

Member
The study I would like to see is how many #1 catchers have knee/back problems by 40 years of age vs. #1 softball pitchers with arm/shoulder/back problems.
 
default

default

Member
The study I would like to see is how many parents with children developing overuse injuries wish they would have done a better job protecting the health of their child.
 
default

default

Member
I am a pitcher's parent and am also against limits.

First, is there absolute evidence that the underhand pitching motion is causing unjury in enough frequency to justify any change? I've known a lot of pitchers over the years and don't know anyone who can attribute with any certainty an unjury do to the underhand pitching motion.

For those who want "some kind of limits", be careful what you ask for. At first it will be a reasonable limit, then will get more stringent and eventually will be ridiculous. Once the camel's nose is under the tent.....watch out.

All on this forum talk about this issue like there is an epidemic of injured girls out there just because of pitching. I don't believe a problem exists and am against any attempt to fix a non-problem.
 
default

default

Member
All on this forum talk about this issue like there is an epidemic of injured girls out there just because of pitching. I don't believe a problem exists and am against any attempt to fix a non-problem.

Not all, but most.
 
default

default

Member
If I were a parent of a pitcher I would be MUCH more concerned with batted balls than overuse. I could control over use. I can't field a ball at less than 48 ft away after exiting a bat at over 100mph for her.

That is my biggest fear. And we all know that this issue won't chnge. Too much money involved. I am against regulating innings at the high school level. I agree. That is a parent's job. If a parent isn't willing to regulate inninigs pitched based on the health of thier daughter, then a parent won't regulate practice either still resulting in over use injury due to fatigue. I don't believe high school is really where we should be focusing if we are looking to regulate innings pitched. I have watched tb pitchers throw 5-6 games in a weekend. That is 25-30 innings in two days. TB poses more of a threat of injury due to fatigue and over use than any high school season. And again, if a parent is not willing to step in and say "no" this parent will also not regulate practice time either making regulation of innings a moot point.
 
default

default

Member
"First, is there absolute evidence that the underhand pitching motion is causing unjury in enough frequency to justify any change"

Seriously? Look up a few posts further back in this thread to the ones I listed right here in "Central Ohio" The one girls arm just snapped pitching and one of the best pitchers to ever come through Central Ohio had Tommy John Surgery in Sophomore year?? and cut a career that she would have been amazing. Not only a great pitcher, but great Kid! These are just arm issues, there are knees backs and others....

I know someone who is a well known youth sports DR. with Children's and will ask him how many he has seen over the last ten years....
 
default

default

Member
But what a game changer it would be, these undefeated teams would have to play defense, what a novel idea!

First, there really aren't that many undefeated teams at the end of the season. Second, they moved pitchers back to 43 feet to give the hitters more of a chance which also increased the risk of pitchers being injured by batted balls. How many rules do we need to add to punish teams for having successful pitchers? It reminds me of the millionaire or billionaire who only pays taxes on investment income. 15% isn't enough tax even though they paid 28% or more in federal income taxes alone when they first earned that money? Why does success have to be punished?
 

Similar threads

N
Replies
0
Views
281
NEMCC Softball Headlines
N
Top