How would you like this call?

[default]

Your on defense, the winning run is at first base. Player steals. The pitch is low and is a foul tip. The runner slides safely into 2nd with no throw. You thought maybe the ball hit the dirt and ask "Hey Blue, wasn't that a foul ball?" Hearing this, the player at 2nd starts jogging back to 1st. The catcher who was still hold the ball throws to first and the runner is tagged. The umpire calls time. "Coach's interference, player is awarded 3rd base" this is because the umpire says that the coach asking about the foul ball led to the offensive player thinking she had to return to first and therefore the coach interfered.

If you're the defensvie coach, how do you like that call?

 

[default]

I don't think a player should leave a base, based on a question from the opposing coach. Runner's out! Ridiculous call putting her on third. IMO.

 

[default]

I don't think a player should leave a base, based on a question from the opposing coach. Runner's out! Ridiculous call putting her on third. IMO.

I agree, at the younger ages and dependant on level, I could see an ump letting her stay at 2nd, not saying I agree with that but...

Or look at it this way, you call the girl out and atleast 24 kids would never leave the base again based on a coaches question and all it cost you was an out lol.

 

[default]

Wow! Pretty harsh call. I do think that there is some sort of obstruction/interference rule that might apply if, in the umpire's judgement, the coach tried to INTENTIONALLY confuse the runner into going back to first. That would be quite a stretch though.

 

[default]

not knowing all the facts for the tone, the other coach's tactics to that point... sounds a bit harsh and uncalled for. The player on the other hand needed to be directed and I'm sure was a good learning opportunity.

 

[default]

Where was the 1st base coach??? He should have been yelling to have her stay put on 2nd.

 

[default]

Where was the 1st base coach??? He should have been yelling to have her stay put on 2nd.

My thoughts exactly. The offensive coaches got lucky (even if she would have been allowed to stay at 2B) because they were not paying attention.

 

[default]

If the runner was not ruled out then it was a 'dead ball' and no play was made and the runner should be returned to second. The ball does not become live until it is back in the circle and the pitcher takes the plate. If it wasn't a foul-tip dead ball then the ball is still live and an out should be recorded on the runner. Tough luck, she'll be better prepared next-time.

The coach is not required to ask for timeout before he asks a question, shouts out or takes any action as long as he remains around the coaching box. There is no rule that allows the umpire to advance a runner based on 'coach's interference.'

The umpire blew it.

 

[default]

If the runner was not ruled out then it was a 'dead ball' and no play was made and the runner should be returned to second. The ball does not become live until it is back in the circle and the pitcher takes the plate.

Ummm...no.

The ball remains live following a foul tip (unless you're playing slow pitch). The runner still must adhere to all the baserunning regulations (remaining in contact with her base, any potential look back rule violations, etc.) and may still advance, retreat or even be tagged out.

But, having said that...there is no grounds for calling "coach's interference" on this play and certainly no grounds to advance the runner an extra base. Coach's interference can only be called on an offensive coach.

If anything, this would be obstruction since it was a violation by the defensive team. Verbal obstruction can be called, but that would be a looong stretch on this one. For instance, if a defensive coach or player was actually addressing the runner and said something like, "That was a foul ball, you have to go back", then verbal obstruction could be called.

I can't see asking the umpire if the ball was foul or not as directly addressing the runner or as a tactic designed to make her go back. Besides, even if it was verbal obstruction, the penalty is to award the runner the base she would have achieved had she not been obstructed. That is obviously second base. there's no obstruction rule that supports awarding an advanced base that the runner would not have reached on her own, minus the obstruction.

Yes, the umpire blew it with his made up ruling. And so did the runner, by leaving her base at the direction of someone other than the umpire or her base coach. And so did the base coaches, by not screaming at her to stay put. And so did the defensive head coach, by not officially protesting an obvious misapplication of a playing rule.

As it reads, I can't see any other ruling than the runner is out on the tag.

By the way...on this play, immediately following the tipped ball, did the umpire give the foul tip signal?

 

[default]

That is a case of an umpire losing control of the game, and then making it worse by doing something that is unheard of. Ridiculous. If anything, just ask the other umpire (if there is one) if it was a foul ball. If it isn't, stay at 2nd. If it is, back to first. Only two choices.

 

[default]

That is a case of an umpire losing control of the game, and then making it worse by doing something that is unheard of. Ridiculous.

Umpires can at times lose control of a game- and it's often not pretty. But I don't really see how that's the case here.

The batter tipped the ball. The runner ran to second. The coach shouted a question. The runner went back toward first and got tagged out.

What did the umpire lose control of?

There weren't any rules being violated during that sequence. There was nothing for the umpire to control, address, stop or prevent during the play. There would be nothing to rule on from the point of the foul tip (he should have signalled it) to the point where the runner got herself tagged out by her own stupid baserunning.

Do you think that the umpire should have jumped in and called time when the runner started heading back to first? It's not our job to protect a player from her own stupidity. You let the play play out and get what you get. Calling time would have prevented the defense from their legal opportunity to record an out.

After the play, he made a bad ruling. But that is not "losing control of the game". That's just...making a bad ruling. The defensive coach should have availed himself of the protest procedure laid out in the rule book.

 

[default]

Had a "same, but different" play where a girl was stealing second on a pitch that was swung on and missed. Ball tipped off the catcher's mitt however and the first base coach thought it was a foul ball even though the PU did not signal foul ball. The coach waved his runner back to first, which she did - all while the ball was live.

FU then calls time out and allows the runner to go back to second! I called time out and asked the umpire for an explanation why he returned the runner to second when she came back to first on her own during live ball. Answer? "because there was 'confusion' on the play and when there is 'confusion' we can exercise discretion".

Personally I thought the umpire was handicapping the game and as it turned out we threw her out stealing third and yes it was 10u. But, it was also an ASA NNQ championship game.

 

[default]

Thanks for the input everyone. I have some bad new to add to this scenario. On the one hand, this did not actually happen to me...but, on the othe hand, this was the explanation given by the umpire/trainer when he scored some umpiring tests for a local umpiring organizaiton. The question on the test basically asked the question in the scenario I originally gave...runner stealing, foul tip, coach asks if ball was foul, runner gets tagged out going back to first. The umpire taking the test answered that the runner is out. The umpire trainer/instructor said NO. It is coach's interference that led to her going back to first and she actually gets 3rd base. This is the person training other umpires...no wonder there are misinterpretation and misapplications of the rules!

 

[default]

Bretman ... in a case something like this where there is confusion about a ruling and/or perhaps on whether time has been called, is there any provision for the umpire to have the runner safely return to 2B? I'm assuming not, but just wondered ...

 

[default]

The umpire lost control of the game because he or she didn't take control. The runner should have been out, not awarded 3B. Regardless what the coach asked, the runner is part of the offense and the umpire didn't say foul ball.

 

[default]

I don't think the umpire "lost control". Given the scenerio described I think it was a misinterpretation of coach's obstruction. An example that I've heard is a runner at third, less than 2 outs, fly ball to the outfield. Runner tags and is listening for her third base coach's command to go when the ball is touched. Someone from the defensive dugout yells "go" before it is touched and the runner leaves early. An umpire can call obstruction on this and award home if he determines that the runner would have scored anyway.

In the example above, I think that the umpire would have had to determine intent on the defensive coach's part. Did he say to the umpire "Wasn't that foul?" or did he yell at the player "Hey, that was foul!", indicating that she should go back. Regardless, in obstruction, you are only protected to the base you would have been going to when the obstruction occurred. In this case, she clearly is not advancing so third seems to be an incorrect award of a base.

Based on the description, I would have called the runner out.

BTW...I have had this situation happen as a coach and it was my runner and base coach that got a talking to...not the umpire. Gotta be smarter than that!

 

[default]

Bretman ... in a case something like this where there is confusion about a ruling and/or perhaps on whether time has been called, is there any provision for the umpire to have the runner safely return to 2B? I'm assuming not, but just wondered ...

Rule 10 gives the umpire the power/responsibility to place runners on any given base IF the runner was disadvantaged by an umpire's delayed or reversed call. That's just not the case on this play. The runner goofed up on her own, not due to any call made by the umpire.

I would only consider calling time due to "confusion" in the lowest level rec league ball. And even then, I would only "consider" it. There would have to be some pretty strange circumstances to get me to really do it!

On this one, for a low level game someone might make the argument that the players are inexperienced, still learning and easily confused. But I say there is no better teacher than experience. The player learns nothing if we bend the rules to "protect" her. On the other hand, if she gets herself tagged out making a bad baserunning mistake...that will certainly be a learning experience!

By the way...for the "instructor" who says that this was the proper ruling...I would challenge him to cite the actual rule he thinks applies here. Unless something is seriously getting lost in the translation here, I can't see any competent instructor calling this "coach interference".

 

[default]

bretman:

Is the umpire supposed to call "foul ball" on a foul tip, as indicated by classicdad99, or is the correct action to signal "foul tip" and make no verbal call?

 

[default]

Is the umpire supposed to call "foul ball" on a foul tip, as indicated by classicdad99, or is the correct action to signal "foul tip" and make no verbal call?

Since a foul tip isn't a foul ball, no, he shound NOT be saying "foul". You just signal the foul tip, then the strike, and make no verbal call.