Is this obstruction?

[Stupid Jim]

Last night at a high school game I witnessed this- the umpire who is one of those cool guys who will not say a word, if its a ball he just looks away and hits his clicker and if its a strike he just raises his arm, if there was a play he would make a signal nothing was said.
So there are runners on 2nd & 3rd one out. Batter hits a hot grounder down third base line 3rd baseman boots the ball right over the top of the base as she is doing this everyone hears "foul ball" come from the home plate area. So the third baseman retrieves the ball and the base runners trot back to there bases, the 3rd baseman throws back to the pitcher and the umpire is standing there with his arm half raised pointing to the in field. Batter goes behind the batters bot to get her bat, and is called out for being out of the base path.
Here it was the head coach of the defensive team who was standing in the doorway of the dug out, behind the umpire who screamed 'FOUL BALL". Everyone on the field heard this and treated this as a foul ball thinking that it came from the umpire.
The real shame of it is this happened in the bottom of the seventh one out, and down 6 to 3, this pretty much killed the rally. After the game one of the parents went to the ump and asked if that should be obstruction, same thing as a 3rd base coach calling for the ball and making a player miss the ball. I also heard of the bench get called for screaming out stuff that made players back away from the play.
Oh, by the way we finally heard the ump speak when he told the parent to shut up and take a class because they were wrong.

 

[snoman76]

Way too many stories of umpires like this. In my opinion 1 story is too many but does whoever in charge of these umpires travel around and watch these umpires work? Obviously they would have to do it secretly or they would never see this type of behavior.

To answer your question, I would have to say yes it is. You can't interfere with the play whether its the coaches, fans, players or whoever.

 

[daboss]

Wow, how unfortunate. So many elements to consider in this scenario really walking the line between right and wrong. I'm sure Bretman can "clear the air"---------------I couldn't resist lol but I have a few opinions on the subject.

I am not a fan of an umpire that refuses to get vocal when there are so many times it can be beneficial in the spirit of the game. Having said that, there are those times when it is correct by the protocol and policy to remain silent. As I believe the rules to be in the case of the fair ball, the ump is to signal the ball is live and in play but not to announce it verbally. If the ball was foul they should have both signaled and announced the ball foul to stop all play. It would than be a dead ball situation. The fact a 3rd party yelled and caused the confusion is what makes this hard to stomach. To my knowledge if the ump felt it was done deliberately a call could have been made but honestly I don't know what call would be correct. Since the play never transpired because all parties retreated back to where they started, I'm curious to hear what you would award the team if anything. The ump called the batter/runner out because of being out of the base path in the described scenario I assume would be correct if the ump did not feel anything intentional happened here. Doesn't seem fair but is it really a violation that deserves the outcome being altered. Not really the umpire's job????

I've witnessed numerous games where a spectator or even a dugout has assumed a more official roll and in the heat of the moment yelled out in excitement. I've never seen an umpire make a call to change things because of it. Had he yelled out "fair ball" to correct things the post here would have come from the opposing side that the ump was favoring the other team and aided them to influence the outcome. How do you win?

My opinion is the umpire laid the ground work by being so quiet throughout the course of the game and while it may have been so innocent on their part it did indeed come back to bite them in the butt. Base ump couldn't do anything as they wouldn't have been in position to make any call. Sad sad sad. While it seems it could have been damaging there's no way to know and nothing that can be done now.

I do have 1 question; why didn't the coaching staff of the offensive team get proactive to get on the baserunners and continue play? They should have been jumping out of their skin to get those girls running and get the batter down the line. Somebody on the coaching staff should have been in the game and picked up on the umpire signaling fair ball!!!!! I'd have been coming out of my skin getting the girls to RUN RUN RUN!!!!!!!!!!! Remember, play is not over till the signal it is a dead ball and the game is not over till they signal the last out.

 

[Stupid Jim]

I admit that the coaches kinda dropped the ball, but as I said they coach screamed it so loud that the center fielder turned her back ad was heading back to her position, everyone including the base coaches assumed it was the ump who made the call.

 

[Simpsoj]

For my $.02 it COULD have been obstruction. A coach is a coach is a coach and is a team representative.....whether on the field at the time or not. His loud verbal call, if deemed intentional and as a method to distract/confuse/disrupt the defensive unit is obstruction. If witnessed by the official (I'm thinking the field umpire) it could certainly be called. It's really no different than if her were on the field and did the same thing.......on the field it would/should certainly be obstruction.

 

[BretMan2]

All sorts of problems here...

But to answer the main question, yes, this could be ruled as verbal obstruction. Verbal obstruction may be intentional or unintentional. It's umpire judgment whether or not whatever was yelled affected the play. On most fields and most plays there are dozens of people all yelling different things at the top of their lungs. Players have some responsibility to know their own coach's voice and to see what the umpire is signaling. This isn't automatically obstruction, but judging each play on its own merit may convince the umpire that the runners were impeded.

It sounds like this umpire's rule knowledge and mechanics were lacking, so it's hard to guess what his personal judgment might be...

- Never verbally announcing balls and strikes, or any other plays, is NOT the recommended procedure! It's not an umpire "being cool". It's an umpire not doing the job he's being paid to do the way he's supposed to be doing it.

- The batter should not have been called out for being "out of the base path"! That rule applies ONLY when a runner leaves the base path to avoid a tag. To have a tag, you need a player with possession of the ball actually trying to touch the runner with it. Absent a tag attempt being made, there is no base path that a runner must adhere to. She could run anywhere she wants to and should not be called out!

 

[SoCal_Dad]

- The batter should not have been called out for being "out of the base path"! That rule applies ONLY when a runner leaves the base path to avoid a tag. To have a tag, you need a player with possession of the ball actually trying to touch the runner with it. Absent a tag attempt being made, there is no base path that a runner must adhere to. She could run anywhere she wants to and should not be called out!

I wondered about calling B-R out for not advancing to 1B, but NFHS rule (2011) requires her to enter team area.

8-2 ART. 4 . . . The batter-runner fails to advance to first base and enters the team area after a batted fair ball, a base on balls, a hit batter (F.P.), a dropped third strike (F.P.), or catcher obstruction.

 

[rangers00]

Third base coach dropped ball on that he should have told his hitter that was a fair ball and to get to first. That batter should be called out for abandoning the base path in which no play needs to be attempted on her. Batter needed to try an advance to 1st if ball was fair. There is no guidance as to how far a runner must go to be considered abandoning the base path. Usually defense would attempt to put a tag on or maybe throw to first since ball was still live. Perhaps once batter went behind batters box ump felt she abandoned the base path.

 

[BretMan2]

Third base coach dropped ball on that he should have told his hitter that was a fair ball and to get to first. That batter should be called out for abandoning the base path in which no play needs to be attempted on her. Batter needed to try an advance to 1st if ball was fair. There is no guidance as to how far a runner must go to be considered abandoning the base path. Usually defense would attempt to put a tag on or maybe throw to first since ball was still live. Perhaps once batter went behind batters box ump felt she abandoned the base path.

The softball rule is quite clear. "Abandonment" requires the runner to actually leave live ball area and enter dead ball area.

"Abandoning the base path" in itself isn't a rule violation, it's not how the rule is written or how it's interpreted.

 

[rangers00]

Which softball rule college states moving back down first base line would be abandonment. NFHS when runner abandons or enters dead ball territory. I just want clarification not that this particular play happens everyday. Drop 3rd strike would be abandonment batter takes steps toward dugout in live area catchers fumbling with ball does not tag her ump calls her out.

 

[BretMan2]

Which softball rule college states moving back down first base line would be abandonment. NFHS when runner abandons or enters dead ball territory. I just want clarification not that this particular play happens everyday. Drop 3rd strike would be abandonment batter takes steps toward dugout in live area catchers fumbling with ball does not tag her ump calls her out.

I don't work college ball. Can you post the rule numbers for the rules you're quoting?

The answers I gave above would apply to high school or ASA ball (and probably others, I'm sure).

 

[SoCal_Dad]

Which softball rule college states moving back down first base line would be abandonment. NFHS when runner abandons or enters dead ball territory. I just want clarification not that this particular play happens everyday. Drop 3rd strike would be abandonment batter takes steps toward dugout in live area catchers fumbling with ball does not tag her ump calls her out.

Here are the applicable NCAA softball rules. There is a big difference between not proceeding to 1B and abandoning a base because the not proceeding requires more before they're called out. Also, stepping back towards home plate to avoid or delay a tag is covered by yet another rule.

12.2 Batter-Runner is Out
The batter-runner is out under these circumstances and those listed under ?Runner.? (See Rules 12.2.9, 12.8 and 12.11.)
...
12.2.4 When she does not proceed to first base after:
12.2.4.1 A fair batted ball, a base on balls, or a dropped third strike.
EFFECT?See Rule 12.11.1. (see below for full understanding)
...
12.2.5 When, after reaching a base safely, a batter-runner abandons her base (for example, obviously heads toward her position or the dugout believing she was put out, the batted ball was foul, etc.), or leaves the field of play for any reason.
EFFECT?See Rule 12.11.4.
...
12.2.9 When she runs the bases in reverse order to confuse opponents or to make a travesty of the game.
12.2.10 When she steps back toward home plate to avoid or delay a tag by a fielder.
EFFECT?(12.2.9 and 12.2.10)?The ball is dead. Each base runner must return to the base legally occupied at the time of the pitch.

12.8 Runner is Out
The runner is out:
12.8.14 When, after reaching a base safely, a runner abandons her base (for example, obviously heads toward her position or the dugout, believing she was put out or that another runner was put out to end the inning).
EFFECT?The ball is live. Runners may advance with liability to be put out.

12.11 Abandoning a Base or Effort to Run the Bases
No batter-runner or base runner may abandon a base or effort to run the bases by:
12.11.1 Not proceeding to first base after a fair batted ball, a base on balls or a dropped third strike.
EFFECT?The ball is live. The batter-runner shall be declared out if she is touched while off base, the base is touched before she reaches it, or she leaves the field of play. Each base runner may advance with liability to be put out.
...
12.11.4 After reaching a base safely, the runner abandons her base (for example, obviously heads toward her position or the dugout believing she was put out, the batted ball was foul, etc.), or leaves the field of play for any reason.
EFFECT?The ball is live. The batter-runner or base runner(s) is out. Each other runner may advance with liability to be put out.

 

[SoCal_Dad]

I wondered about calling B-R out for not advancing to 1B, but NFHS rule (2011) requires her to enter team area.

8-2 ART. 4 . . . The batter-runner fails to advance to first base and enters the team area after a batted fair ball, a base on balls, a hit batter (F.P.), a dropped third strike (F.P.), or catcher obstruction.

I think NCAA rules don't require her leaving the field to be called out.

I was mistaken due to the NCAA differences between not advancing to 1B and abandoning a base (see post #12).

FWIW, here is the NFHS rule (2011) on abandoning a base.

8-6 A runner is out when:
ART. 22 . . . She abandons a base, enters her team area or leaves the field of play.

 

[FastBat]

I thought, the umpire behind the plate only verbally cues if it is a strike? If it is a ball, silence. But, the umpire should between every pitch hold the fingers up to signal the batter's count?

 

[BretMan2]

I thought, the umpire behind the plate only verbally cues if it is a strike? If it is a ball, silence. But, the umpire should between every pitch hold the fingers up to signal the batter's count?

A ball should be verbalized as "ball" with no other signal.

A called strike (non-swinging) is verbally called "strike", plus a strike signal.

A swinging strike should be no verbal call, only a strike signal.

Some guys deviate from this, but the above is by-the-book umpire mechanics and what a qualified evaluator would be looking for if the umpire was being observed.

 

[rangers00]

Nice research job SoCal Dad. Thanks for clarification.

 

[rangers00]

The softball rule is quite clear. "Abandonment" requires the runner to actually leave live ball area and enter dead ball area.

"Abandoning the base path" in itself isn't a rule violation, it's not how the rule is written or how it's interpreted.

I am confused if its not a rule violation why is the rule in rule books?

 

[BretMan2]

And I'm confused why you're confused...

Again, my answer applies to high school or ASA rules. Neither has a rule against "abandoning the base path".

They have abandoning the bases, which only applies if the runner leaves the field of play.

They also have a rule about deviating from the base path, but that applies ONLY if the runner does so to avoid an imminent tag by a fielder.

Absent a tag attempt being made, or the runner leaving the field of play, there is no defined base path that a runner is restricted to.

 

[rangers00]

I am not confused just sarcastic. In your previous post " you said its not how the rule was written and not how its interpreted". Well then there is a rule you cant say in one post there is and another post say there is not a rule. Which is it?

 

[rangers00]

Basically repeating what SoCal already posted. NFHS 8-6-22 "The high school softball rule states the runner is out if “abandon a base, enter her team area or leave the field of play.” The fastpitch ‘field of play’ is defined as fair or foul territory (2-22-1)."