look back rule- Bretman

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I know this has been beaten like a dead horse but for what ever reason it is still confusing.

I have the basics of the rule down- but there is one part that when I read it, it is straight forward but I want to make sure that I'm reading it right.

I can not find this statement in the ASA rule book but it is in the USSSA rule book.

Quote: Being in the 16-foot circle is defined as both feet within or partially within the line. The feet may touch the line and extend outside the line. When the pitcher is in the pitchers circle and the runner (S) is off the base, the pitcher is considered to be playing on the runner (s) when the throwing arm is raised or any forward movement of the body is made toward the runner. Movement of the head is not considered an attempt play.

EFFECT: Ball is dead and runner is out.

I see alot where the pitcher has the ball in circle - makes a play and the runner is standing about 3-5 feet off base then decides to slowly go back to base. No Call

But the rule above clearly states that the runner is out- am I reading that right at any time if a play is made while ball is in circle and runner or runners are off the base they are out .

I know this is elementry and maybe I'm just reading the rule book so much that it is all running together and nothing makes since anymore but I just wanted to know if this is what this is stating.- thanks

 

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I see alot where the pitcher has the ball in circle - makes a play and the runner is standing about 3-5 feet off base then decides to slowly go back to base. No Call

When the pitcher has the ball in the circle an is not making a play on a baserunner (per the rulebook definition), the runner must commit to advancing to the next base or retreat to the last base occupied. There is no rule for how fast they need to go back. As long as they do not stop or change direction, they could crawl back to the base if they wanted to.

 

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Yep. That's the way I've always played it. The runner has to pick a base and not change direction getting there.

 

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The only exception that I find to this is in the supplement and I find this kind of interesting. How many times have you seen a pitcher take her glove off with the ball in it and put it either under her arm or between her legs so she can fix her headband or pony tail? Did you know (I ask because I didn't) that the ball is considered live and the runners can advance because the pitcher is not considered to have control of the ball? (ref. 2010 pg. 126 K)

 

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The3dm - that control issue is interesting!

Love the Bretman thing!

 

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Op--I think you are adding a definition with an effect. The effect of the runner (s) being off the base with the pitcher in the circle is a dead ball runner out. The definition ---the pitcher is considered to be playing on the runner (s) when the throwing arm is raised or any forward movement of the body is made toward the runner. Movement of the head is not considered an attempt play

 

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everything in the ASA and USSSA rule book is the same except the USSSA rule book had that last paragraph which I quoted. and from that I read that once the ball is in the circle with the pitcher if a runner is still off base she is out - that would mean that the runner has to try to make it back to the bag prior to the pitcher getting the ball in the circle.

I never see it played this way I allways see the runner start to slowly move back to the bag once the pitcher gets in the circle with the ball. (I know that there is not a time limit just that she must make a decision and go directly) but this paragraph would say that in those cases the runner is out.

Just want to make sure that when I call a game that I'm calling it corectly.

Thanks for the help and comments.

 

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The3dm

Interesting - I don't see that in the 2010 NFHA rule book and I dont have the ASA in front of me.

The USSSA rule book is contrasting to that rule in ASA-

USSSA says the look back rule is in effect when the ball is live , the batter-runner has touched first base or has been declared out, and the pitcher has possession of the ball(eg. Has ball in hand, glove, under arm or chin, between legs)within the 16-foot circle.

 

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3DM- I read your post wrong it would state the same thing- sorry

 

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I read that once the ball is in the circle with the pitcher if a runner is still off base she is out - that would mean that the runner has to try to make it back to the bag prior to the pitcher getting the ball in the circle.

I don't see where you read that .....Your quote has two separate statements. 1. Being in the 16-foot circle is defined as both feet within or partially within the line. The feet may touch the line and extend outside the line.

2. Play on the runner (s)...the pitcher is considered to be playing on the runner (s) when the throwing arm is raised or any forward movement of the body is made toward the runner. Movement of the head is not considered an attempt play.

Both of which an ump needs to know when making the call for the look back rule.

 

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Semperfi

36 & 37 of the rule book USSSA- I think you were right I was reading last paragraph as a stand alone and it is really a definition of beign in the 16-foot circle. After re-reading I believe I have it.

 

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Once they decide to go back to a base they must go back even if pitcher is in circle with ball if they stop they are out if they change there mind and go in other direction they are out.once player decides to go back she gets the base.

 

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I watched Blue blow this one in Gahanna last year. Since I was on first base coaching. Pitcher had one foot inside the line and one foot outside the line. Called runner out at Third for walking back too slow. Cost us the game. He blew it on two points above. At least when I explained the rule, he admitted he blew it.

 

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OMG!!!!!!! 3dm first time I actually have seen the BRETMAN SIGNAL thats awesome!!!!!!!!

 

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Been out at games the last two nights and haven't been on the board...

I agree that you were probably reading the section or paragraph out of sequence. Hope it makes sense now!

A side note on the point about pitcher "possession" of the ball, in regards to the Look Back Rule (LBR): This is one of the rule differences between ASA and high school ball- and, USSSA. (U-Trip tends to follow the high school rule book with many of their rules, even so much that entire sections read almost identical).

In ASA softball...their rule states that the pitcher must have "possession AND control" of the ball. This is interpreted in ASA as meaning that the ball is held securely in either the properly worn glove or bare hand. Holding the glove and ball between her knees or in the crook of her arm means that the pitcher DOES NOT have "possession AND control". This would negate the LBR.

The high school and USSSA rule...is different. Their rules call only for "possession" by the pitcher, not "possession and control". Under their rules, the pitcher can hold the ball outside the hand or glove and meet their definition of "possession". The LBR would still be in effect.

 

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Ask Japan if you can crawl back to the base. They lost an international match to the USA moving too slowly back to first.

 

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Ask Japan if you can crawl back to the base. They lost an international match to the USA moving too slowly back to first.

Well, the crawling metaphor was intended to be strictly hyperbole. I tell my girls that if you aren't going to go to get back to base and stop fooling around. I don't like baiting blue into making a call.

 

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Is there really a rule that mandates how quickly the baserunner must return to the bag? If she is at a snail's pace but too close to through out, I would have my pitcher and catcher speed things up to catcher off base as she pitches...but I can't believe there is a rule mandating the pace of the baserunner's return to their base!!!

 

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3dm:

The Bretman Gotham image!!!! Thank you for bringing it back.