Make the Call

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Bottom of the 7th, home team is down 9-8, with 2 outs and runners on 1st and 2nd. Ground ball to 2nd baseman ball is booted. Shortstop steps in front of runner going to third, full collision, runner eventually gets around shortstop and rounds 3rd. Throw goes to third base and runner gets tagged out trying to get back to third. Had there been no obstruction, runner may have been close enough to home to score or at least have a close play at the plate. What's the call?

 

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My uneducated opinion: I think the umpire decides where the runner would have advanced had the obstruction not occurred. Runner should either be awarded home or third based on that judgement. Either call would be "correct".

 

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This is tricky.. Had the player been tagged or forced out (prior to reaching the base) at third she would have been safe due to obstruction. Now, she safely made it to third (cancelling the obstruction call) and attempted home only to be tagged out going back. I would say the call is the runner is out. Who's to say if there were no obstruction at all she wouldn't have tripped or lost her footing running home and been thrown out. Just my opinion. I could be way off here...

 

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This is tricky.. Had the player been tagged or forced out (prior to reaching the base) at third she would have been safe due to obstruction. Now, she safely made it to third (cancelling the obstruction call) and attempted home only to be tagged out going back. I would say the call is the runner is out. Who's to say if there were no obstruction at all she wouldn't have tripped or lost her footing running home and been thrown out. Just my opinion. I could be way off here...

OK, let's say the ball got into the outfield and the runner was going for home all the way and gets thrown out in a close play at the plate. The fact that she made third safely cancels the obstruction?

 

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If it was the runner who started on 2nd and the ball got very far away from the 2nd baseman, she needed to try to score and she would have been awarded 3rd at the worst and home at the best with no chance for the out call.

 

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OK, let's say the ball got into the outfield and the runner was going for home all the way and gets thrown out in a close play at the plate. The fact that she made third safely cancels the obstruction?

Normally I wouldn't give my opinion on rules because I'm not as sharp as I should be if I going to answer a question but seen a similar type of play and this was the explanation given... Made sense to me at the time.. Like i said, I could be way off here.. I'm sure a different ump would call it totally different.

 

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If it was the runner who started on 2nd and the ball got very far away from the 2nd baseman, she needed to try to score and she would have been awarded 3rd at the worst and home at the best with no chance for the out call.

I agree. As soon as that runner tried to get back to 3rd she put herself in jeopardy.

 

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I agree. As soon as that runner tried to get back to 3rd she put herself in jeopardy.

I respectfully disagree....sort of. It would depend on the umpire's judgement at the time obstruction occurred. If the umpire thinks the runner could have come home safely without the obstruction, she gets home. If he thinks the runner could have only made it to third, then he could rule the runner out (because he would have awarded her third). I think Obstruction is only cancelled when the runner reaches the base the umpire determines she COULD have reached without the obstruction. This is not necessarily the next base.

 

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The scenario doesn't say what happened to the ball after it was booted by the second baseman. Assuming it never left the infield and got to the outfield where there was an increased possibility of a runner scoring from second, it would be hard to make a case that runner on second would have had a legitimate scoring opportunity from second base. Without actually seeing the play in question, it sounds like she was protected until she got to 3rd base. She rounded it and attempted to go back. That's not the shortstop's fault. Out at 3rd.

 

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Without the obstruction the runner could have rounded third turned and seen the ball being thrown to third and easily gotten back to third base safely. Because of the 1-2 second delay, she had no time after rounding third to get back safely. There was absolutely no chance of a force at third and had the fielder still attempted to make the force at first base, she could have and should have tried for home. It was because of the obstruction that she didn't have time to get back to third safely.

One might say she shouldn't have rounded third and since she did, she was fair game, but the fact remains, without the obstruction having done everything the same, she would have made it to third safely from either direction.

 

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She's out. Obstruction has to do with the hindering of a runner reaching a base the umpire determines she otherwise would have reached safely, not what happens after she gets there.

 

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The base award is whichever base the umpire judges the runner would have reached had she not been obstructed.

If the runner goes past that "protected" base, then she is liable to be tagged out.

Often these plays are "had to be there", since the outcome involves making a judgment call on a play we didn't see. On a ground ball to F4, I'm having a hard time picturing a runner from second reaching home- but then again, it would depend on where the ball went after the fielder booted it.

So, there are really only two possibilities here: either the umpire judged the runner would have scored, in which case the award would be home, or he did not judge she would score, in which case this runner overran her protection when she rounded third and would be out on the tag.

Why was your third base coach not telling your runner to stop on the bag if the ball was that close?

 

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So, there are really only two possibilities here: either the umpire judged the runner would have scored, in which case the award would be home, or he did not judge she would score, in which case this runner overran her protection when she rounded third and would be out on the tag.

Why was your third base coach not telling your runner to stop on the bag if the ball was that close?

Then the umpire made the right call and the third base coach is a knucklehead!

 

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when did players start listening to their base coach's ????? --- If a memo got sent out could you forward it on to NOTRE DAME HIGH SCHOOL Sunset Av . Portsmouth Oh. 45662 I would laugh but crying sounds more appropriate . MD

 

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So Bretman, the proper question for the coach to ask the umpire after the play is over is: "Sir/M'aam, what is the furthest base that you believed the runner could have taken when you gave the delayed obstruction signal"? If the umpire responds, "Home, but then she got tagged out after rounding third base and trying to get back", that would be an incorrect application of the obstruction rule, right?

 

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So Bretman, the proper question for the coach to ask the umpire after the play is over is: "Sir/M'aam, what is the furthest base that you believed the runner could have taken when you gave the delayed obstruction signal"? If the umpire responds, "Home, but then she got tagged out after rounding third base and trying to get back", that would be an incorrect application of the obstruction rule, right?

That's right. If the umpire honestly judged that this runner would have scored, then she cannot be put out anywhere between second and home.

 

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After many years of coaching, I finally figured out in the last year that there is an art to approaching umpires about bad calls ... Carol, that's a great way to address this kind of a situation for sure!

(And when the umpire says that it doesn't matter, then you start kicking dirt and throwing things!)

 

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After many years of coaching, I finally figured out in the last year that there is an art to approaching umpires about bad calls ... Carol, that's a great way to address this kind of a situation for sure!

(And when the umpire says that it doesn't matter, then you start kicking dirt and throwing things!)

If we can control our emotions enough (and for me that is a biggie, for Ted not so much), we try to ask first what the umpire saw. Once the ump has committed to what he or she saw, it is usually pretty clear whether there is an argument that the rule has been misapplied. Some umps will listen to the rule-based argument once they have stated what they saw, others will not. And with protests either not being allowed or being charged $100 (sometimes non-refundable) in so many tournaments these days, if you get the ump who won't reconsider the proper application of the rule in light of his or her statement about what the ump saw, there is not a heck of a lot that you can do.

 

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It sometimes boils down to understanding the rules. bretman made a call this summer at our high school game and the head coach and fans went nuts. Lucky my friend couldn't hear the names they were using. He made the correct call and the next game we gave the head coach a copy of the rule about the ball hitting a defensive player first before it hits the runner. I think I was the only one besides him that knew the correct call. I agree with the emotions comment.

 

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Had a situation in a 10u game last year where batter hit a ball in the right center gap. As she rounded first the ump showed obstruction for our first baseman not providing enough room for the runner (they never touched and I didn't think it slowed the runner but that is not the point in what happen on this play). The batter runner slid in ahead of the throw and tag, but her foot then bounced off the base while we had the tag on her. The ump called safe because of the obstruction. We didn't debate that we tagged her out on the throw before she reached the base, but that she came off the base after reaching it and we tagged her. The ump said if she hadn't been obstructed, she would have went in standing up with no chance to come off the bag.