Hitting and Hitters Discussion Move up on the ball? Destroy a swing.

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"I understand the Howard "don't move, stay in your zone" theory. I am sure it works. But in doing so, you also must have taught them patience, so that they are able to comfortably wait the LONG extra hundreths for the ball to get to them. I also thing this is grand if you are the hitting instructor AND the coach. But if I am a coach, and I have a down-in-the-order hitter who doesn't make timing adjustments easily, I don't understand why standing physically over the plate trumps cutting 2-3 hundreths off of the pitching time."

We teach our hitters that relaxed hitters are confident hitters. Slow to load and soft to step on a flexed front knee so we can adjust. We also teach how to track the ball and what rhythm, timing momentum and balance means and it starts with tee work from the first lesson and that includes grip.

Additionally, we teach them they can hit 9 balls high and nine balls wide and I feel this makes a huge difference by instilling confidence that they can hit anything or anybody.

You make a good point that if the hitting coach and coach are the same it may make your team stronger in your line up of one through nine.

For about the last 9 to 10 years we have worked with many many coaches who have adopted this philosophy to some extent. A few are Boulders Dad, Hitter 23, SB Family, Crush1, Cubsfan, Cshilt, CGS, Ted, Lester, Kavin (plus their coaches), MEB, Hortman, ifibuilt, Charles Kelly, Scott Morris, Bob Burlew, Gary Davis. I know I may have left some names out....sorry I am getting old.

Recently the 12 year old Static team won the Eastern Nationals and also the 16 year old Buckeye Heat.

These coaches help at clinics and appear to buy into most of what is taught and you must be the judge of their success.

If they were to move a person in the box based on some information they have observed, I would feel confident their players could execute.

I agree there is more to it than just saying move up in the box especially if the coach does not understand what they are doing and the player can not execute the coaches strategy.

Howard

 

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If she is going 0-8, it sounds like there are other problems than just moving up a little in the box. The batters need to be able to adjust to the pitching.

Klump earlier in the thread I stated that she had other issues but that I was using her as an example because she realized all be it too late that moving was affecting her timing. If I had said she went 5-8 and the 3 she struck out on were because she moved up in the box would it have made a difference?

Dana.

 

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There is no absolute answer here. Some of the most successful coaches in the game of softball have the same opinions on both sides of this debate. There are too many variables for there to be one definite way of doing things. I have seen teams that have swings I would say are old school like turning on the back foot with an up to down bat path and the coach is telling his players to “cut the ball in half” and yet I have seen these teams hit the ball very well. Now if you teach the philosophies of Howard Carrier, Leon Woods (Who I studied under), Candrea, Slaught, and Enquist you wouldn`t teach this way of hitting since you would think success would be limited but it worked for that team so is it wrong? Although I teach hitting using RVP technology and things I learned from attending clinics, watching videos, and reading threads from Howard, Candrea and others over the years I like to keep an open mind. For example, some instructors teach that with the grip you must line up the door knocker knuckles. Don Slaught says when you look down the barrel of the bat and extend your index fingers they should make an “X” since during the swing you will have throttle up. Is one more correct than the other? I think I remember reading one of Howards threads where he said when a hitter is in her stance she should be on the balls of her feet so if you had a piece of paper half way under each foot you should be able to pull out each piece of paper. When attending a clinic a few years ago @ the Doug Gillis academy Candrea was speaking on hitting and he said you want the hitter to feel the ground with her feet and you want them flat while in her stance. For both examples I say whatever feels comfortable for any particular player. Same thing with moving up or back in the box, why would it be different than moving closer or farther from the plate. I have read articles and seen videos that teach a player how to make the pitcher throw the pitch they want by setting up closer to the plate to entice the pitcher to throw inside then when the pitcher begins here motion the hitter moves away so that inside pitch now becomes down the middle for her. Just opposite for an outside pitch. Candrea said in his clinic that Crystal Bustos good @ doing this. If you teach your players to stay neutral in the box and your players have success those players and parents will think you are the wizard of smart. It also holds true for the coaches that tell their players to make the adjustment by moving forward or back. We played the Buckeye Heat 16u team Howard mentioned this past season @ the ASA State tourney and some of their players moved up in the box when I had my slower pitcher on the mound. Where they doing something wrong? If so you would have to tell the girl that hit a three run homer off her she should not have moved up.

 

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There is no absolute answer here. Some of the most successful coaches in the game of softball have the same opinions on both sides of this debate. There are too many variables for there to be one definite way of doing things. I have seen teams that have swings I would say are old school like turning on the back foot with an up to down bat path and the coach is telling his players to ?cut the ball in half? and yet I have seen these teams hit the ball very well. Now if you teach the philosophies of Howard Carrier, Leon Woods (Who I studied under), Candrea, Slaught, and Enquist you wouldn`t teach this way of hitting since you would think success would be limited but it worked for that team so is it wrong? Although I teach hitting using RVP technology and things I learned from attending clinics, watching videos, and reading threads from Howard, Candrea and others over the years I like to keep an open mind. For example, some instructors teach that with the grip you must line up the door knocker knuckles. Don Slaught says when you look down the barrel of the bat and extend your index fingers they should make an ?X? since during the swing you will have throttle up. Is one more correct than the other? I think I remember reading one of Howards threads where he said when a hitter is in her stance she should be on the balls of her feet so if you had a piece of paper half way under each foot you should be able to pull out each piece of paper. When attending a clinic a few years ago @ the Doug Gillis academy Candrea was speaking on hitting and he said you want the hitter to feel the ground with her feet and you want them flat while in her stance. For both examples I say whatever feels comfortable for any particular player. Same thing with moving up or back in the box, why would it be different than moving closer or farther from the plate. I have read articles and seen videos that teach a player how to make the pitcher throw the pitch they want by setting up closer to the plate to entice the pitcher to throw inside then when the pitcher begins here motion the hitter moves away so that inside pitch now becomes down the middle for her. Just opposite for an outside pitch. Candrea said in his clinic that Crystal Bustos good @ doing this. If you teach your players to stay neutral in the box and your players have success those players and parents will think you are the wizard of smart. It also holds true for the coaches that tell their players to make the adjustment by moving forward or back. We played the Buckeye Heat 16u team Howard mentioned this past season @ the ASA State tourney and some of their players moved up in the box when I had my slower pitcher on the mound. Where they doing something wrong? If so you would have to tell the girl that hit a three run homer off her she should not have moved up.

I forgot to add my friend Leon who has helped at our clinics before. Tell him Evangel U. an NAIA school, beat Missouri State a week or so ago. When I first starting working with Don, both Leon and Coach Breaux were working for Don. Two great human beings!

Was the home run over the porta Johns? Kylie Gross signed a home run ball for me that had, "Howard thank you and I cleared the second porta John!"

I think you are correct as there may be no best answer as it really depends on the players ability to adjust and her abilities to execute.

The next factor is how much or how often does the player work on their on their own to perfect their abilities

Kyle Gross, Kylie's father helps at the clinics as well as Ted and Carol.

Nice group of parents and players except for one parent and he knows who he is!:lmao:

Howard

 

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I have a question for all of those who are chiming in here - there has been alot of mention about timing, but nobody has said anything about preparation in the on-deck circle. Why? One of my favorite videos on this site is a college hitter at bat swinging at a pitch and the camera angle also shows the on-deck hitter almost like a mirror image with her swing timed exactly the same as the hitter at bat. Now I am an old baseball guy and coach both baseball and fastpitch, but teach both hitters to use their time in the on-deck circle to figure out when they need to start their swings. Maybe it is a little advanced for young girls, but to me, it stands to reason if you have that information available when you get in the box, now you just need to be able to adjust to off-speed pitches. Any thoughts on this versus moving players up/back in the box?

 

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I have a question for all of those who are chiming in here - there has been alot of mention about timing, but nobody has said anything about preparation in the on-deck circle. Why? One of my favorite videos on this site is a college hitter at bat swinging at a pitch and the camera angle also shows the on-deck hitter almost like a mirror image with her swing timed exactly the same as the hitter at bat. Now I am an old baseball guy and coach both baseball and fastpitch, but teach both hitters to use their time in the on-deck circle to figure out when they need to start their swings. Maybe it is a little advanced for young girls, but to me, it stands to reason if you have that information available when you get in the box, now you just need to be able to adjust to off-speed pitches. Any thoughts on this versus moving players up/back in the box?

We encourage our hitters to use the bungee bat before they get on deck.

When courage them to do vision drills for example the pencil drill.

We want them to go to the plate thinking where am I going to hit the ball not if we are going to hit the ball!

In the on deck circle we time the pitcher by loading at the three or four o'clock position and striding on the release. When you load and when you stride is based on their athleticism. We call this ER and it simply means one two in Chinese however it gives them a sense of timing and rhythm as to the pitchers motion. During tee work as I lower my hand they say EEEE and when I toss the ball they say R and then swing and it gives them a better sense of the pitchers timing. Same thing when using a pitching machine or even front toss.

We want their motion in their swing to be like that of water flowing in a bottle and flow to the ball smoothly.

The last three swings they do the handover drill to remind them self what extension and follow through feels like.

Howard

 

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I basically agree with both opinions - center of the box and moving in the box. The reason - I have some hitters that will swing over top of every pitch against a certain pitcher, each game is different, each pitcher is different. I watch for this from first base. If I see it happening, I will move them up a little bit and usually this will end with them hitting the ball. While up to bat, I think it is easier to adjust their location in the box opposed to their timing. I will also move a batter up that has a very fast bat and we're facing a much slower pitcher, it is just easier for them to adjust their timing if they move up some too.

 

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Title of this post was Move up in the box, Destroy a swing. Some people have weighed in on what they teach optimally and I don't disagree that moving around in the box isn't a magic cure for bad timing, but my argument was against the OP which used the word "Destroy" which I haven't heard anyone else support. IMO a good hitter can have success front back or middle and poor hitters struggle wherever they stand.

 

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Perfect example of movement in the box. Yesterday playing Notre Dame. They have a very nice peel drop pitcher. Our team struggled against it. When the dd came to the plate, she recognized it and moved the back foot to the front corner. And she was successful against the pitch.

Next series of pitchers comes in and the girl throws a rise and a screw as her main weapons of choice, Again the movement is on and her front foot is now at the back corner of the plate. Again successful not fishing at anything out of the hitting zone.Waiting on either the mistake pitch or one that comes thru her zone.

My main point is movement helped in this success. By moving forward she contacted the drop ball before it bottomed out . Hense no driving it in the ground. The faster pitcher she moved back in the box to see the ball maybe a smidgen longer and let the ball break to her zone.

My view of it all............. movement works


Tim

 

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I have a question for all of those who are chiming in here - there has been alot of mention about timing, but nobody has said anything about preparation in the on-deck circle. Why? One of my favorite videos on this site is a college hitter at bat swinging at a pitch and the camera angle also shows the on-deck hitter almost like a mirror image with her swing timed exactly the same as the hitter at bat. Now I am an old baseball guy and coach both baseball and fastpitch, but teach both hitters to use their time in the on-deck circle to figure out when they need to start their swings. Maybe it is a little advanced for young girls, but to me, it stands to reason if you have that information available when you get in the box, now you just need to be able to adjust to off-speed pitches. Any thoughts on this versus moving players up/back in the box?

That video is one of my favorites, love how she mirrors the batter. I sent this to my whole team but still have girls who get in the on deck circle and take two ugly swings then talk to their teammates through the fence.

I can lead them to water, show them how to drink, tell them to drink but in the end it is up to them wether they want to put what they have been taught to use.

 

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Tim do you feel Britt's knowledge is an exception to the "normal kid" or that by attending the Busto's clinics gave her an edge?

Do you feel that your understanding of hitting is normal as compared to the general public information and understanding of the swing?

I know you compared to the general public....and still call you my friend.:lmao:

Thanks Howard

 

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Tim do you feel Britt's knowledge is an exception to the "normal kid" or that by attending the Busto's clinics gave her an edge?

Do you feel that your understanding of hitting is normal as compared to the general public information and understanding of the swing?

I know you compared to the general public....and still call you my friend.:lmao:

Thanks Howard

I dont see her as anything except what she is. And the majority of that is because of you and all the time she has spent around this system.

I honestly feel that any kid is capable of learning what you have taught her and therefor being able to adjust in the box. Granted she may have more experience just like Crystal has more then her. But that lack of experience diddnt stop her from Learning that adjustment as it shouldent keep any younger less experienced player behind britt learning it also.

I use the expression of what you have taught us to a younger kid learning to drive. Just because she has her licence in no way would I suggest letting the kid drive NASCAR. I do believe it is an advanced concept and is a learned skill.

Maybe this should be something that we could teach at an advanced level hitting clinic along with hitting inside out and other drills we never seem to have the time to pass on at a regular clinic.

I teach the inside out hitting to my younger kids now and laugh at their coaches when the kids do it and the coaches tell them you were behind the ball and the kid replies no i went opposite field down the middle of the plate and the coach just looks lost or tells them they were lucky.

You always told me that hitting evolves..... movement is nothing more than that. Just another weapon in the hitters arsenal.

Some day I hope to learn enough to grab that pebble from your hand lol.


Tim

 

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You will have to pry it out! Perhaps a bottle of jack first.

 

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May or May not be relevant to the topic but here we go...

Regardless of the level of play or sport I have been taught that "adjustments are part of the game". You do not overhaul what you do but, tweaking may be needed to attack what the opposition is trying to do to get you out or because of game conditions...

Like the original poster stated my philosophy at one point was find a spot at the plate you are comfortable with and stick with it.. Since it worked for me.

However; 6 years ago at 12U..My DD who could hit a little moved her front foot to the front of the box and was pretty far out in front of the plate.

I called time and asked her what was she thinking... She said the umpire keeps calling strikes at her ankles so she was going to move up and hit the next one while it was higher in the zone... Sure enough she did...

She started making this a habit when batting right handed and I questioned her on why she keeps moving up in the box...Her response was because the pitchers keep throwing me fastballs when I move up!
Not sure if her moving up took away pitches or encouraged the pitchers to try to blow and go but her AVG. stayed above .400 and she maintained her slugging % so I did not change anything.
Left handed she stayed with the original approach of standing middle of the box. IMHO her swing looked better and she maintained her .400+ avg with a little lower slugging %.

So with this being said, Age, Ability, Situation all factor in when making adjustments and sometimes... the player has the ability to make the call on adjustments like bouldersdad stated without killing a swing....

 

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My dd will adjust within the box as well and she is a really good hitter. She is not constatnly doing it it but she will from time to time. These sort of post (like the pitching ones) brings out all the experts (and Im not one of them). But I do realize that you can not have a "cookie cutter" swing for everyone. Players come in different shapes and sizes and athletitism (spelled wrong Im sure of that). Good batters can adjust; one thing I hate hearing is that "I cant hit her she is too slow". So my opinion is that you are all right because if your teaching it and its working then great, keep up the good work.

 

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If moving around in the box is going to destroy a batters swing then she doesn't have much of one to begin with.

Someone is looking for an excuse. This one is readily available and allows the batter not to take any responsibility. She can do what ever is being suggested on these 70 posts but this problem is not mechanical, it is mental.

How are you going to fix that?

 

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If moving around in the box is going to destroy a batters swing then she doesn't have much of one to begin with.

Someone is looking for an excuse. This one is readily available and allows the batter not to take any responsibility. She can do what ever is being suggested on these 70 posts but this problem is not mechanical, it is mental.

How are you going to fix that?

Respectfully, I disagree that it is all mental.

If you can not get balanced in your stance and maintain that balance in your stride if becomes more difficult to adjust your timing as to the pitchers release and speed of the ball and location in the zone, as to in/out up or down.

Usually, the coach that moves them up or back may not have as much knowledge as the hitter has and that is not a joke.

SBfamily probably goes to more clinics than anyone I know. He sees this bad information even at the college level so no one is immune from it.

A coach that knows his hitters can manage this verses guessing where to move them and practicing this also helps.

Most female hitters I know always complain about slower pitchers and like the faster pitchers.....I say learn to adjust and hit ALL the pitchers!

Learn how to dance with the pitchers and track the ball and you can move them anywhere.

Howard

 

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I don't think it is possible to have a late break, a ball is slowing down from the time it leaves the pitchers hand so how could it break late? It is going to start moving from release to the point it is caught, simple physics.

Regardless of whether moving up is going to screw up timing or not, there are a couple things that are for sure. The ball does start slowing and breaking when it leaves the pitcher's hand, but the break is exponential not uniform. Once the ball starts moving the more the wind resistance is going to effect it, so as the ball slows it breaks more and as it starts changing directions the rate of break increases. At release the wind resistance is directly opposite to the travel of the ball (assuming a calm day). Once the ball starts to move the wind will now be starting to slightly resist the ball laterally and the more the ball moves the more lateral resistance against the ball until the ball is caught or stops breaking due to loss of energy. Without wind resistance there is no break. This is true for the same reason a ball pitched into the wind will break harder and sooner than a ball thrown on a calm day and once the ball starts moving the movement will increase. A pitched ball may have only fractions of an inch of lateral movement during the first 20 feet, but may break a foot or more in the last 7-10 feet.

The best way to dictate break is the ratio of spin relative to speed. If a pitcher throws a pitch at 45 mph with 19 rps, it will break later than the exact same speed and slower spin. Or a girl that throws 45 mph with an rps of 19 will break sooner than a girl throwing 48 with the same rps. My dd is starting to learn those concepts and locating where the batter is in the box.

In regard to spin, the faster the ball spins the sooner it will break and the harder it will break. Otherwise we would be teaching our pitchers to take it easy on the spin. A ball thrown at 45mph and 19rps, may not break sooner than a ball thrown at 48mph with the same spin. Remember, the faster the pitch the more wind resistance. This is why a rise ball isn't an effective pitch for a pitcher throwing 40mph, but works real well at 55+ mph.

Finally, to say a rise ball doesn't rise is only partially true. Don't confuse a change in elevation with trajectory. No, the trajectory of a rise ball does not make it curve away from Earth. A rise ball simply resists gravity better than a fast ball due to the spin on the ball and again wind resistance. However, the highest elevation a rise ball may hit from the time it leaves the pitcher's hand until it is caught, may very well be the catcher's glove. For example, even though the trajectory of a cannon ball shot out of a cannon at 45 degrees is sharply arching to Earth, it continues to rise in elevation for half of it's journey.

 

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Roto148,

I don't agree with your word selection while trying to describe the scientology of a pitch, but it is apparent to me you have some working knowledge of what it takes for a spin pitch to work. I hope others will look beyond the petty issues and understand the message you are trying to share.

Good job.

 

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I just wanted to point out that there are several factors which effect a movement pitch, it isn't as simple as it appears at first glance.

I gave it my best effort, and acknowledge a rather rambling effort at best. :lmao: