OSHAA rule-no more than 4 from the same school

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I'm sure that it has been brought up before, but I sure can't figure out why they have the rule that prohibits a travel team from having more than 4 girls from the same school on the team, except for between 6/1 and 7/31. I realize that many of the high-level travel teams get girls from all over the state, and thus don't have this problem, but if you are from an area that has a lot of girls who have the desire and ability to play travel ball together, it just doesn't seem right that they should be prohibited from playing together more than 2 months a year.

I realize that with indoor ball in the fall/winter, a team can have more than 4 members (since OSHAA, at least for now, doesn't consider indoor ball "softball&quot.

It seems like I have heard that some of the reasoning behind this has to do with not wanting a school team to have the ability to work together throughout the year, and thus give them a possible unfair advantage over other teams, but that doesn't really make any sense (since all would have the same advantage).

It also seem like if you were allowed to work together year-round (outside of the actual school season) it would benefit everyone. Including those parents who have to go a great distance for a travel team, just so their daughter can play around the year, and not be hindered by the OSHAA rules.

I am probably missing something key to this whole thing, so I thought I check with you all, and see what the real story is.

 

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> I don't know how the rest of you feel, but outside of school, what my kid's do is nobody's business but mine.

 

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Thats right someone needs to cotact the ACLU and file a lawsuit.

 

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While I can agree that it is a stupid rule, contacting the ACLU will do you no good. Here is the problem. Nothing says that 5 -10 girls from the same school are not allowed to participate on a team together year round. However, if you want to participate on an OHSAA sponsored event (the OHSAA is a private organization) then you have to play by their rules. You are not forced to play for the OHSAA team. A school is not forced to join the OHSAA. It is a voluntary choice made by the school, the school is part of the organization that makes the rules, and nothing requires you to abide by their rules UNLESS you want to play in their game.

Having said all that, I dont understand why kids cant play with whomever they choose during the offseason.

 

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Do other states have this rule or are the girls from Ohio playing on an uneven field? I've heard that some states down south don't have this rule but not sure if it's true.

 

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Actually the team can have have as many players from the same school as they want. It is when they are coached by a coach that is board approved by that high school where the rule comes into play.

What this really effects is the ability of high school coaches being able to coach travel ball. Of course they have thier 10 days of contact, but that is not enough.

I personally think that if HS coaches were able to coach in the summer then just like players they would get better as too. Then the entire level of play acroos the state would improve.

I do believe that there is a huge advantage to those teams located in the NE that participate all winter long indoors. For the most part the entire HS team plays together 6-8 months out of the year. Of course they are not coached by ther HS coaches but still they get to work together. Just look at the results year after year in the state tournaments, they speck for themselves.

 

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Rich, you are slightly wrong. Outdoor softball can not have more than 4 girls from the same team after July 31. From Aug 1 until the start of the High School season they are limited to 4 or less for OUTDOOR softball. You are correct in the coach can not coach them.

Indoor softball the whole team can play together - without the high school coach.

 

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lewred14, not really sure if I am wrong. I did not know that you were referring to play after Aug 1st. In that case you are correct. This applies to outdoor fallball, but not really travel ball in the traditional sense. Travelball typically takes place between the 1st or 2nd weekend in June thru Aug 1st or the completion of a national championship tournament if that tournament passes Aug 1st before it is complete. In the case of travelball during the summer, there is no limit on how many players from the same HS team can be on the travel team.

 

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Rich,

We are thinking the same now. I thought you were saying at anytime (you know what they say about assuming). I guess I took it that way as that is what I thought the original poster was talking about.

 

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I have one more twist to this question. ?If a player is on a middle school 8th grade team, would they be eligible (per OSHAA rules) to play on a travel team with, say 5-6 other girls from the same 8th grade team as soon as the school season is over (early May), and into August-October? ?This question is mainly around the difference between middle-school ball and high-school ball, and whether or not these players would still be considered part of the "scholastic" team, since their middle school "careers" are now over, and they have not yet been added to a high-school roster. (Does OSHAA differentiate between middle-school and high-school ball, or do they consider 7-12th grades all part of one "scholastic" team)?

I've read through the OSHAA bylaws, which are far from being clear on much of anything, but I don't really see anything that addresses this. ?Although it does say that the rule doesn't apply once you've finished your Senior year in high school, so wouldn't the 8th grade be the equivalent of your "senior year" in middle school? ?;D

 

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If you are part of the OHSAA program in Middle school and sanctioned by them, it does pertain to them as well. If you are not a feeder school and un sanctioned, you are clear.

 

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I like this rule.... otherwise varsity school coaches would force their players to play all summer for them. I think different coaches gives girls a variety of instructions. I sure wouldn't want my DD to be stuck with one coach all year long.

 

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One thing I wanted to point out. I haven't looked at case law on this in a while now, but as I recall the courts have held that the OHSAA, although a private body, is a "state actor". That means that the courts will hold the OHSAA to be a government agency in its dealings. Like schools, however, the OHSAA is granted extremely wide latitude in making rules and in administering its version of "due process".

It's a very good thing that the courts hold the OHSAA to be a state actor. Otherwise, we could potentially have all kinds of government bodies join to form their own administrative agency and then claim to be outside the jurisdiction of the government in its dealings with people. The courts will declare a body like the OHSAA a state actor when, for all intents and purposes, the people it supposedly serves (student-athletes) have no choice but to be under its jurisdiction if they are going to take part in the regulated activity.

I believe this accounts for why the OHSAA must give a due process hearing in most of its decisions that affect student-athletes. Of course, the hearing is a sham. It would be nice to see the courts be willing to clamp down on the discretion, or complete lack thereof, exercised by the OHSAA. While administrative agencies such as the OHSAA are given wide discretion to enforce their rules, they are obligated to actually exercise that discretion and not rule arbitrarily. If ever an agency could be counted on to not use discretion and hand down automatic rulings, it is the OHSAA.

Also, I believe the four-girl rule also applies to middle school players who have played on an OHSAA-sanctioned school team.

 

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Joe,

Question for you. If everyone realizes that the OHSAA due process procedure is a sham, is there any way to push them through legal procedures to make changes?? I am speaking as an individual. I guess what I mean - would a team of girls who wanted to play year round have any chance in a court proceeding of getting this overturned??

What I could see happening is a group of girls - from the same school - play year round. Come HS season they go play for the same High School. High School self reports to OHSAA. OHSAA says they are ineligible. Girls sue in court, get an injunction (temporary probably) to play while they sue. Court case isnt heard until after season is over (due to slow court system). Isnt this basically what Lebron did - sue to get an injunction of OHSAA ruling.

Do you think they could win??

 

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Let me add, I dont endorse anyone to try this - I am just curious of what the legal opinion is on it.

 

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And OJ is still looking for the killer on golf courses.....

Anything can happen in today's courtroom if you try hard enough. Not sure I'd recommend it unless you have the backing like Lebron did

 

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Fast2Home:

If a HS coach wants to "force" his or her players to play together during the summer, all he or she needs to do is get someone to coach the team who is not recognized by the School Board as a coach at that particular HS. And even then, the coach can have ten contact days with the team.

Maybe there should be a rule that HS coaches can't preclude individual players from electing to play summer ball with a team that is not affiliated with the high school, but I don't understand why girls who wish to continue to play together can't do so under their high school coach during a period in which most decent HS players are all playing ball anyway. The restriction on fall ball also strikes me as silly, as long as there is a clear rule that players who wish to participate in fall HS sports will not be penalized for not playing fall ball.

I don't fully understand the AAU volleyball and basketball situations/rules, nor do I understand club soccer rules, but it strikes me that HS softball teams are getting the short end of the stick.

 

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I think I get it, but maybe not. If there are 5 girls from the same high school team on my dd's travel ball team, can they play in a national tournament that starts July 28 and end on August 4th? Seems like July 31st is July 31st and that is the cutoff stated in the by-laws. :-/

 

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There is an exception for national tournaments that go into early August.

 

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LewRed: I didn't see your question until today. The type of ruling you're looking for is a big, big step away. A state Supreme Court would basically have to rule that playing high school athletics are a protected right, similar to the right to attend high school itself, and not a mere privilege. If a court ever went that far, then state athletic associations would be held to much closer scrutiny.