Pitching and Pitchers Discussion Pitcher getting lead runner at second

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At the showcase travel and collegiate softball levels, with a runner on first, less than two outs and ball hit back to the pitcher should the pitcher be taught to A) throw to the 2nd base and expect the SS (certain situations 2B) will get there, B) wait till the SS (or 2B) gets to 2nd base and then throw, C) Lead the SS (or 2B) with the throw even if that means throw not at the bag but in front of the player covering the bag so they can catch the ball then step on the bag in fluid motion?

*** Additional information for clarity***

Ok, let me clarify because I am not getting answers to the question asked. The ball is hit hard to the pitcher, the pitcher catches it cleanly, the runner wasn't stealing and isn't 2.6 or 2.7 runner. We have a legitamate chance of getting the lead runner and maybe a chance to turn a double play. Do you throw to the bag (albeit possibly leading the SS but still to the bag), to the bag after the shortstop gets there, or lead the shortstop even if that means throwing 3-4 feet before the bag because that is the quickest throw from the pitcher and the shortstop isn't close enough to lead by throwing to the bag.

We had a discussion about this the other day and wanted to get some other opinions.

 

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I guess depends on the age group. How expereinced is your pitcher and 2nd/SS player.

 

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My opinion would be: If the ball is not hit hard enough, or it is bobbled go one. A hard ball back to the pitcher, short should be breaking and it is her responsibility to be there and a throw to the bag would in a since be leading her. I say bag, still a risky play going against the %.

 

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At the younger ages I say get the sure out at 1st unless it's the potential tying / winning run. Seen too many balls end up in CF.

 

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I guess depends on the age group. How expereinced is your pitcher and 2nd/SS player.

Showcase Travel. Very experienced.

 

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At the younger ages I say get the sure out at 1st unless it's the potential tying / winning run. Seen too many balls end up in CF.

Wasn't necessarily debating first or second and wasn't talking about the younger age groups, but since you brought it up I teach my 8u community select team to always think lead runner until determined not possible then go to one. If balls are thrown into center my view is spend more time on throwing and catching. Getting lead runner is always the goal.

 

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the next time i see this (NOT throwing to get the lead runner) at the SHOWCASE level I'm gonna grap a rocketech , knock my teeth out and throw them at the team on the field til I get tossed from the park. Does that explain how I feel about the question ---Throw the *&%$% ^% (*&((*& $%$%$$%$% in' ball to second.

But Oh so often do I see pitchers never even consider the option. small pet peeve of mine. lol MD

 

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Showcase Travel. Very experienced.

I guess it would be helpful to read the first sentence again. With that type of expereience A should be the only option. The runner is breaking at the release. But as Go 2 Go 2 puts it "a weak roller", get that out at 1st.

 

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Depends who is on first and how hard is the hit. . If that kid is a 2.6 or 2.7 runner, you have no chance of getting her, on a slow ground ball. Cover with Short and the way Kobata teaches her to cover the bag and drag her foot, so you might turn a double play. Way too many at being taught wrong and with steel in high school they are going to pay the price.

 

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I'll take C which hopefully also happens to be A in your scenario.

At the younger ages, I coached a championship 8U team and always had the pitcher take the sure out at first, or even third with runners 1st and 2nd. But never to 2B. We usually had a comfortable lead however so that runner usually didn't mean much.

At 10U, the runner is almost always stealing on the first pitch, regardless of the ability of the catcher, so they are already going to have a good jump on getting to 2nd base. I'd still have my pitcher take the sure out at first.

 

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Ok, let me clarify because I am not getting answers to the question asked. The ball is hit hard to the pitcher, the pitcher catches it cleanly, the runner wasn't stealing and isn't 2.6 or 2.7 runner. We have a legitamate chance of getting the lead runner and maybe a chance to turn a double play. Do you throw to the bag (albeit possibly leading the SS but still to the bag), to the bag after the shortstop gets there, or lead the shortstop even if that means throwing 3-4 feet before the bag because that is the quickest throw from the pitcher and the shortstop isn't close enough to lead by throwing to the bag.

In my opinion the pitcher must always think second on a cleanly caught ball, the decision to go to second is left up to the pitcher based on where the runner is going from first to second as well as the game situation.

 

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No question - lead runner, throw to the bag. Pitcher has time to see SS - if she is way behind, go to first.

At the level and age if they can't execute that they will have more to worry about than a ball going into center field.

 

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Absolutely go to 2nd base, lead the throw to the SS and then go to 1st for the double play. As they get older and learn their coverages better and get quicker, the pitcher shouldn't have to lead her, she should just throw to the bag. I am often AMAZED to see upper level players not going for the lead runners or even attempting double plays. That is something that should be taught from a young age in my opinion...always go for the lead runner and never throw behind a runner!!!

 

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I've been teaching my girls with the lead throw.

 

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I prefer to see the throw leading the SS going to the bag. Too many throws directly to the bag end up in centerfield IMHO. But at that age/level always think lead runner.

 

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In the scenario you describe, absolutely throw to 2nd! A good way to get bench time is for your middle infielders to fall asleep on a routine play like this. At the collegiate level, a double play is turned probably less than 40% of the time in this situation - usually because the runner going to 2nd is taught to "break up" the throw with an aggressive slide. BUT, you're getting an out (productive) AND you're not letting your opponent gain any more advantage than they already had. An easy throw to first (the lazy way) allows a runner into scoring position.

IMO, it's flawed logic to NOT make this throw at ANY LEVEL. Winning at the lower age groups IS NOT the main focus, it's TEACHING KIDS HOW TO WIN - Big difference. If you never allow them to develop the confidence to make this play (for fear of failure) they will never develop confidence at a higher level of play. "Playing afraid" will never win the big games!!

Execution of a leading throw as the SS crosses the bag depends on timing. An experienced college pitcher should be able to do this automatically. The REASON they can do it automatically is because they've done it - ENCOURAGED TO DO IT - many times before in games.

 

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Another point to emphasize is that the catcher (or someone) should be calling the play for the pitcher. Especially at the higher levels there is so little margin for error that the time it takes to "look" could allow all hands to be safe.

 

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I always taught lead runner first oiption, in this case 2nd. If its going to be close, take the sure out at 1st.

In the scenerio you describe, 2nd should be choice, leading SS to bag with throw.

 

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The pitcher should be throwing to retire the lead runner - no debate there.

In terms of where the throw should be, slightly to the fielder side of the bag - say 2-4 feet. So, if the shortstop is covering, the throw should be slightly to the left of second. If the second baseman is covering, slightly to the right of second.

The shortstop has the advantage of having her open glove to the throw and can handle more range (in other words, you can "miss" a bit more and still get an out. Just don't launch it over her head or behind her.

Since the second baseman has to turn her glove, the throw is probably most effective if it is closer to the bag, when the second baseman is starting a turn to put her right foot on the bag.

If the throw is in the window - over the bag to 3 feet to the fielder side of the bag - and you don't get the out - start inspecting the fielder's ability, not the pitcher.

 

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It has always been my belief that the more routine you can make plays the better your players will execute. There is nothing routine about leading the shortstop to second. Routine is fielding the groundball, turning and throwing to the bag. Pitchers should be able to do this in their sleep. It is the shortstops responsibility to get there and realistically on a groundball up the middle, she should be moving in that direction anyway.