Pitching and Pitchers Discussion Pitcher getting lead runner at second

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Easy big fella's. I'm sure you are both more than qualified and you both have valid arguements. There is more than one way to do everything and what works for you works for you. I've seen the throw to the bag and I've seen it lead the SS. I've seen both work and both not work. Whatever works best for the players that are on the field.

 

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I need to try to recall what Kobata teaches as far as the throw. I know the footwork he teaches, but I don't recall where he would want the throw. I think with his footwork the throw would probably have to be on the base for it to work the quickest. This is one area, though, that I'm willing to sacrifice .1 or .2 of a second and maybe not get the DP in return for a more sure out at second.

I tell our pitchers just slightly on the shortstop side of the base. If they throw it on the base, that's a tough play for the SS to make, worrying about her footwork and not tripping over the base, as well as the runner bearing down on her.

If I had a Div. I team and those type of athletes, I might change things. But my pitchers just aren't great athletes and we don't have endless hours to practice that one play.

Joe I agree. Most division one pitchers can make an accurate throw. I dont buy throwing to the bag is faster, especially if the ss cant get there. What we have not discussed is, how often a double play is actually turned in womens softball. Its not rare, but it doesnt happen all that often.

 

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Trust me, most pitchers in college softball are taught to slightly lead the SS on that side of the bag.. Throwing to the bag, unless the SS is well ahead of the throw and the sliding runner, it makes turning a double play almost impossible.
MY DAUGHTER WAS TAUGHT to lead, dont tell me what only makes sense. If a ss gets the ball at the bag it will take two stps to throw the ball. if they catch the ball a step before the base, they will get the ball to first sooner. Obviously you guys never played pitcher.
A ss will get to the bag at the same time with or without the ball in their mit. Now, if they are only trying to get the lead runner, then throwing to the bag makes sense. Every pitcher I saw in mens softball leads the ss. After 25 years and 16 nationals, I think I have a clue as to how the game is to be played.

Good answer right on. A lot of it depends on the maturity of the pitcher and her teammates. It depends on when that light comes on where they realize they can get that lead runner. How comfortable they get on the mound. I would say 12u and 13u are good if they just get the lead runner. Starting at 14 and above, they become skilled enough to start leading that middle infielder. I'm not saying it can't be done at the younger ages. I'm saying the average teams go at this speed.

 

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I don't think they are that rare at all, I see them all the time. Our team practices them as much as throws to first. We've already had a double play and we've only played in 2 league games. There are alot of coaches out there who do not believe in going for them, they'd rather go for the sure out at first. Double plays for those kinds of teams are rare. But the teams that work those plays and use them, they are pretty common.

 

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Double plays happen more at say 12u - 14u in travel ball, especially with the more skilled "practiced" teams. Think of college ball as groups of the best travel ball kids. When you add baserunning speed and timing, smart sliding skills and higher level "game smarts" - DPs become much less common.

IMO, slightly leading the SS allows her split second "prep time" to decide whether to make the throw to 1st is worth it. Getting the ball out of the glove eats up time, and the more time she has, the better.

I'm heading up to watch one of my DD's games today, so I'll ask her (as a pitcher) her thoughts on this subject, and also what her coach teaches.

 

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I don't think they are that rare at all, I see them all the time. Our team practices them as much as throws to first. We've already had a double play and we've only played in 2 league games. There are alot of coaches out there who do not believe in going for them, they'd rather go for the sure out at first. Double plays for those kinds of teams are rare. But the teams that work those plays and use them, they are pretty common.

I`d be surprized if a high school team had 10 double plays in a season where the lead runner was out at second and the batter was out at first. I know in the Big Ten it does not happen a lot. Most double plays I see is where the SS fields the ball as she is going towards 2nd base and turns the play herself. More rare is SS to 2nd base who turns it, or 2nd to SS who turns it. Even more rare is pitcher to SS who turns it.

 

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There is obviously more than one school of thought
read the last paragraph
http://www.qcbaseball.com/skills/infield_shortstop2.aspx

http://www.kirkwood.k12.mo.us/paren...ents/PDF Files/IF D with Multiple Runners.pdf

it says

The technique the shortstop uses with his footwork at second base in receiving the
throw and then delivering the ball to first can be executed in one of two ways.
Ideally, the shortstop would like to be able to receive the throw as he is
approaching second base and continue uninterrupted through the base with his
footwork. The shortstop should try to receive the baseball as he is approaching
the far side of the base in relationship to first base. After receiving the throw as
the shortstop arrives at the bag he should carry his momentum forward by leading
with his left foot but drag his right foot along the far side of the base. Once the
back foot has recorded the force at second, the shortstop rotates his feet on the
second base side of the bag so that they are in line with first base and his
shoulders are squared to his target to deliver the throw.

 

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I`d be surprized if a high school team had 10 double plays in a season where the lead runner was out at second and the batter was out at first. I know in the Big Ten it does not happen a lot. Most double plays I see is where the SS fields the ball as she is going towards 2nd base and turns the play herself. More rare is SS to 2nd base who turns it, or 2nd to SS who turns it. Even more rare is pitcher to SS who turns it.

I didn't say it happens alot in HS ball, I'd be surprised if it happened more than once or twice a season. Not much in college either, but in 12U-16U travel, I see it quite often.

 

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I may have started the next 'linear vs rotational hitting' topic. yeah...

 

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Punchout. Your first web page is almost exact words I posted that Kobata uses. Last paragraph says " Sometimes the ball will be delivered before you can get close to the bag. In this case you can catch the ball and then use your lead throwing foot to make the out. Simply step on the bag as part of your normal throwing motion. You will make the out at second and the bag will provide you protection from the baserunner." The second post looks from a high school baseball coach? So it looks like we agree. I don't like to use baseball fielding posts, because softball is played at a different speed. 60 foot bases and 60 foot throws and you only have 2.8 seconds in most cases to get a runner out at first, that is why you see more double plays in baseball and you have more time to square your feet to throw a ball 90 feet instead of 60 feet. . So I also agree with you on double plays. First paragraph of your post "When covering second on a double play, the most natural way to make the out and positon yourself to throw to first, is to approach the bag and straddle it. As the ball is being thrown, catch and drag your right foot across the bag to make

 

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Punchout. Your first web page is almost exact words I posted that Kobata uses. Last paragraph says " Sometimes the ball will be delivered before you can get close to the bag. In this case you can catch the ball and then use your lead throwing foot to make the out. Simply step on the bag as part of your normal throwing motion. You will make the out at second and the bag will provide you protection from the baserunner." The second post looks from a high school baseball coach? So it looks like we agree. I don't like to use baseball fielding posts, because softball is played at a different speed. 60 foot bases and 60 foot throws and you only have 2.8 seconds in most cases to get a runner out at first, that is why you see more double plays in baseball and you have more time to square your feet to throw a ball 90 feet instead of 60 feet. . So I also agree with you on double plays. First paragraph of your post "When covering second on a double play, the most natural way to make the out and positon yourself to throw to first, is to approach the bag and straddle it. As the ball is being thrown, catch and drag your right foot across the bag to make

Basically a pitcher has to deliver the ball where she can, if she thinks a double play might occur. Obviously in baseball there is time for a shortstop to straddle the base and turn the play. In softball 90% of the time the shortstop will be moving thru the base. If the pitcher waits and times her throw to hit the ss AT the base, a double play , more than likely will not happen. If the pitcher can deliver the ball to the ss before the ss gets to the base, the ss can be in the middle of her throwing motion as she steps on the base. A double play is therefore more likely. If people want to disagree with that, I`m fine with it, but they are wrong....lol

 

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This is a tough play for the pitcher; not impossible but difficult. You are asking a girl to throw the ball 65MPH, leap 8', get in a fielding position, flush the pitching mentality and exchange it for a fielder mentality, , get her glove on the ball, look at runner going to second, find the short stop moving to the base, DECIDE to throw or not, Then throw the ball while leading the short stop. This has to be done in less than 2.0 seconds in order to get a runner that is quick off of first.

If the pitcher decides not the throw and to go to first she has to twist her body and make an awkward throw counter to her natural movement. This has the same time limits on the play.

Some kids can do this and some can't. There is almost no chance of getting a double play because of the time it takes a pitcher to twist and make the throw. it is possible but unlikely. I would love to get the lead out and i would work on it in practice.

However, any out that your pitcher can get is a bonus. Her main job out there is to pitch AND not get hurt. A ball hit hard back at her is just as likely to be deflected as it is to be fielded cleanly. If she panics easily then just get the out of first. If she has great presence and your shortstop is similarly gifted, then go for it. There is no hard and fast rule on this.

 

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She should be able to make the throw to second, more then likley she would need to throw the ball 3 to 4ft left (towards SS) inorder for SS to catch the ball and then step on the bag and make throw towards first. It must be practiced so timing is already known.. As far as thinking, all thinking should of been done prior to the pitch by all players ( what to do with the ball if it is hit this way or that way, were are the runners, how many outs, whats the score etc.) But we all known many girls are thinking before the pitch "did I put my sun block back in my bag" or " I can't wait to go on my date with so and so"

If things are not prepaired before hand then just tell the girls to remember this.."When in doubt, get the out" which means on any batted ball, you can always get an out at first.

 

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Asked my DD about this one. (college pitcher) Have to read the play as it unfolds. Is the SS there? Is she a step slow? Generally, try to lead the SS into a smooth transition, but it's a snap judgement. Whatever you do, don't throw it to the CF and say the SS was supposed to be there. No hard and fast rule and not something they have spent much time on.

Coach hates to see the pitchers field the ball unless they have to anyway. Common feeling in college, not so much in travel ball. Pitchers pitch, fielders field. But that's a whole other debate.

As already mentioned, in the best of circumstances, it's a tough DP to turn in SB.

 

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Playing Softball is like handling a Snake! It's not the Tail that you have to worry about, It's what's up Front that does all the Damage.;&;&



FASTPITCH! Anything else, And you're playing to SLOW!

 

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Parma; You are being a little cavalier with your pitchers. Everyone else on the field has the luxury to review what to do with the ball if it is hit to her and then the time to do it. The pitchers have very little time to react to a hit because they are still in their follow through. I think you want your pitcher focused on the pitch. If she can get the out a second great but at least get an out. Don't throw it to the outfield and don't look at 2nd and then miss the out at 1st and for goodness sake don't get hurt.

 

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Someone said it right, it IS a snap judgement. I think most of the time they are just going for the lead runner out. The pitcher will then throw to the base. But on a hard one hopper, when the pitcher turns towards 2nd and sees the SS on her way, the pitcher needs to decide quickly if they are going for one or for two. Normally either the SS or 2nd base is yelling the play. I also agree not all pitchers can make this play. Agree, when in doubt, get the out. However, they do practice leading the SS.
There is a big difference between high school ball and summer ball. There is even a bigger difference between summer ball and DI college ball. Having a DD that played in the Big Ten against ranked teams like Michigan and Northwestern, I got to see softball at it highest college level. Those kids ARE impressive. No weaknesses.

 

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Asked my DD about this one. (college pitcher) Have to read the play as it unfolds. Is the SS there? Is she a step slow? Generally, try to lead the SS into a smooth transition, but it's a snap judgement. Whatever you do, don't throw it to the CF and say the SS was supposed to be there. No hard and fast rule and not something they have spent much time on.

Coach hates to see the pitchers field the ball unless they have to anyway. Common feeling in college, not so much in travel ball. Pitchers pitch, fielders field. But that's a whole other debate.

As already mentioned, in the best of circumstances, it's a tough DP to turn in SB.

I also asked my DD (college pitcher) and another pitcher on the team how they handle this. Their answer was very similar - there is no cut-and-dried way. It's a split second decision, and athletes have to rely on their training and instincts. You cannot always lead the SS, nor can you always throw to the bag.

For instance, let's compare two situational hits back to the pitcher.

A) Slow dribbler/hard bunt back to pitcher = less time for throw, and SS may already be to the bag, in which case the throw would be straight to the bag/SS. Less chance of DP at 1st.

B) Hard grounder back to pitcher = more time for throw, SS may not be to the bag yet, so use a slight lead throw. More possibility of SS also throwing to 1st for the DP.

Exx - I disagree with the "fielding pitchers" attitude of your coach, because in ANY game - travel or college - a game might be decided on a single error. Any coach should DEMAND the pitcher field their position. Cutting them slack "because they are pitchers" is a prescription for lost games. A weak fielding pitcher is a hole in the defense.

 

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Sammy, I'm on your side with fielding pitcher question. When most of these pitchers are young, they are often some of the best, most practiced players on the field. (not always of course) When they get to college, suddenly they are pitchers only and it's assumed they can't field, at least as well as the regulars. (When was the last time you saw a MLB pitcher catch a popup?) While they may not take as many balls as the regular fielders in practice, they can still play and should be used any time it's 51-49 or more the pitcher's ball.

Case in point, earlier this year, there was a popup in the infield to the right and behind the circle. SS was playing deep and called for the ball, sprinting to get it. As you can guess, she fumbled the running catch while the pitcher could have had it with normal effort. (not sure what happened to the right side of the infield.) Deffered to the SS because of the "no field" concept. Similar popup a couple games later, this time in front of the pitcher. 1B running in and about to call for it, when we all hear MINE MINE MINE quite loudly from the pitcher. Easy catch for the out and lesson learned. Didn't see the coaches reaction, but the first baseman was looking at her like she was a martian! Probably a case of catch it-- nothing said, drop it --- woe unto you. Good for her tho, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

I guess my final answer to the original question would be to train your players to think on their feet and make the play accordingly. Give them the physical training to have the tools to do what is needed in that play, let them decide in the moment which method to use. ie Practice all three ways to make that play, and that gives them the best chance to make it when it counts using whichever method the situation calls for. Hard and fast rules sometimes lead to a botched play.

 

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I'll buy that. Infield pop-ups are a special situation. Given the option, you want your "non pitchers" to make "routine" catches - when given an option. Why? Because it's practiced by them a lot more than the pitchers. I was more or less referring to grounders or bloops hit fairly directly to the pitcher where there is no other option.

While in Florida, DD made a diving elbow scraping catch on a pop-up bunt, which prevented a baserunner. No physical harm done. Should a coach tell pitchers to NOT try to make this play? Some would say don't try, because they don't want the pitcher getting hurt. I disagree with that philosophy, because I don't believe in putting the pitcher on a pedestal and treating her like a Prima Donna. And what message does that send to the rest of the team?