Pitching and Pitchers Discussion Pitcher getting lead runner at second

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"IF" the pitcher has a strong throwing arm then always get the lead runner if there is apparent time. Many pitchers can not make that throw. Yes lead the SS slightly to the SS side of the bag. Leading is a timing thing, so it could be different on every play.

 

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I will still do it the way Kobata has stated since he has it down to a science in doing it the quickest way. He covers this play in detail with both the short stop and the second base having to make the play . He does not have them throw the ball to the short stop side of second base, that eats up time!

 

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I will still do it the way Kobata has stated since he has it down to a science in doing it the quickest way. He covers this play in detail with both the short stop and the second base having to make the play . He does not have them throw the ball to the short stop side of second base, that eats up time!

So please describe what he teaches.

 

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Definitely go to 2nd Base with the throw. We teach the girls that it's the SS's responsibility to communicate to the pitcher "your coming to me on a hot one" in this situation pre-pitch and the pitcher to acknowledge that communication (i.e. we better be able to see and hear them communicating).

SS is already cheating in that direction anyway (thinking of coverage for steal) and should be reading ball off the bat that way and moving towards the bag on contact.

 

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Absolutely go to 2nd base, lead the throw to the SS and then go to 1st for the double play. As they get older and learn their coverages better and get quicker, the pitcher shouldn't have to lead her, she should just throw to the bag. I am often AMAZED to see upper level players not going for the lead runners or even attempting double plays. That is something that should be taught from a young age in my opinion...always go for the lead runner and never throw behind a runner!!!

What about a 3rd baseman with no outs and runner on third. A difficult to handle shot is hit to third and the baseman is faced with a piece of cake throw to first or a throw through the runner to an average catcher?

 

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^^^ don'y muddy the waters --I'm hoping for a 6 page masters level thesis on whether the throw should be 4 inches to the 2nd base side of 2nd or 6 inches to the SS side of 2nd. We could fine tune a fiddle fart on here sometimes , just throw the dang ball to 2nd slightly leading the ss , the throw obviously shouldn't be behind her. MD

 

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I need to try to recall what Kobata teaches as far as the throw. I know the footwork he teaches, but I don't recall where he would want the throw. I think with his footwork the throw would probably have to be on the base for it to work the quickest. This is one area, though, that I'm willing to sacrifice .1 or .2 of a second and maybe not get the DP in return for a more sure out at second.

I tell our pitchers just slightly on the shortstop side of the base. If they throw it on the base, that's a tough play for the SS to make, worrying about her footwork and not tripping over the base, as well as the runner bearing down on her.

If I had a Div. I team and those type of athletes, I might change things. But my pitchers just aren't great athletes and we don't have endless hours to practice that one play.

 

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i say throw at bag ss should be there or have to get lead runner.now at 12u i still like lead runner but every once in a while we will make call to go to 1st then second hoping runner will round bag

 

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Here is my take. After fielding the ball, the first read the pitcher should make is the SS. Is the SS moving toward 2nd or has she fallen down, slipped, or caught off-guard? This is only a split second decision and won't really effect the play at second if thrown and caught.

If the SS has fallen, slipped, or caught off-guard, then the play is to first base.

But, the initial play should be to 2nd base.

If the SS was caught off-guard, then the execution of the SS by firing squad will occur between innings

 

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This is a situation where your SS has to really shine, and show WHY she's at SS. She cannot cheat towards the bag, or she'll get burned on a hard shot to her right - now you have runners on 1st & 3rd, with no outs to show for it. I've seen many game lost at the HS level like that.

The throw by the pitcher will vary slightly depending on how quick the SS is, how hard the ball was hit, how hard the pitcher throws, etc. So there is no exact science, because there's too many variables. But I agree that it almost has to be nearly over the bag or just slightly left. Another variable is as the level of play increases, so does speed. So with a 12u team executing this, the throw may be much further left of the bag, but still make the play. With accurate throws, DPs are more likely at younger levels than college.

In every case, SS has to play her position, use excellent footwork to the bag, make the catch while tagging the bag - all while avoiding the advancing runner AND looking for a potential DP at 1st. A SS that can make that play on a consistent basis is worth every penny of her scholarship!

 

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Get the lead runner - in showcase travel, in community travel and in rec. Teach them to make the right play.

Coach Murph

 

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What about a 3rd baseman with no outs and runner on third. A difficult to handle shot is hit to third and the baseman is faced with a piece of cake throw to first or a throw through the runner to an average catcher?

I wouldn't do either. I also played 3rd and I would have faked the throw and tagged the runner at 3rd and then looked to see if I still had time to go to 1st. If the runner is breaking on the hit then the fake becomes obsolete and I would absolutely throw home and get the runner rather than go to 1st. Whether the catcher is average or a stud, she should be able to handle a throw from 3rd base and if she can't, she shouldn't be a catcher. I wouldn't teach my whole infield to not go for the right play because one position cannot catch the ball, find a player that can catch the ball.

 

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I wouldn't do either. I also played 3rd and I would have faked the throw and tagged the runner at 3rd and then looked to see if I still had time to go to 1st. If the runner is breaking on the hit then the fake becomes obsolete and I would absolutely throw home and get the runner rather than go to 1st. Whether the catcher is average or a stud, she should be able to handle a throw from 3rd base and if she can't, she shouldn't be a catcher. I wouldn't teach my whole infield to not go for the right play because one position cannot catch the ball, find a player that can catch the ball.

Klump - Quote in red is spot on!

DD's travel team at 14u had that fake throw/tag nearly perfected. It was the coolest thing to see it work. The runner would walk right into the tag - gotcha! However, I've yet to see it in college ball, because everyone knows that trick. The runner is held, pop throw to 1st - if the runner is really fast, they MAY beat the 1st baseman's throw back to the catcher. But those throws are usually smoked, and most runners are gunned at the plate. Depends on the runner - and... never trade a run for an out.

 

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Joe is right. He teaches the short stop has but one step and to throw the ball. He has two methods. 1. As the short stop catches the ball she drags her left foot over the bag and throws to first with one step as she goes over the back side of the bag toward Right Center field side. 2. She steps with her left foot on the corner of the bag that is facing the pitcher and as she throws with one step that toward the RF side of second base. Both methods avoid having the runner from sliding into you with spikes.Second base fielding he calls it the push off. She fields the ball on the back RF side of the base and pushes off, this avoids the runner that is sliding into the base. You are giving one step to throw in his methods. He does not want the fielder catching the ball and taking multi steps before she can throw the ball. That is why he does not lead the fielder. 15heat has all my Kobata information at present so if I missed something I will let her correct me. OhioWave, Rich you have attended many of his clinics so chime in.

 

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Definately you throw to the bag. The SS should be there. If not, then someone has work to do. This probably isn't worked on enough but in the situation you describe, the pitcher should have plenty of time to turn and make a good throw to 2 and as a bonus, the SS can catch the ball in stride and try to make a play at first. Don't see this too often but with good throws, it is worth the shot.

 

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Its been a long time since I played SS but I am pretty sure that is the same footwork we were taught in baseball both at SS and 2B and I am guessing its the same footwork they are still teaching today.

I appreciate everyone's feedback on the timing of the throw.

I would say given the athleticism of my SS 9 times out of 10 my pitchers' throws are to the SS side of the bag which ends up being a slight lead throw to our SS who then in one fluid motion uses the proper footwork as described above. But that 1 time when my SS got a late jump and my pitcher double clutched, the debate amongst the coaches came up - should the pitcher have adjusted her lead throw and not double clutched or did she do the right thing by double clutching. Chances are in both cases, we still got the out at second but with the double clutch, we had zero chance of turning the double play (which was certainly going to be harder regardless because the SS timing was going to be off).

Thanks again for everyone's insight. This forum is an awesome resource.

 

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Klump - Quote in red is spot on!

DD's travel team at 14u had that fake throw/tag nearly perfected. It was the coolest thing to see it work. The runner would walk right into the tag - gotcha! However, I've yet to see it in college ball, because everyone knows that trick. The runner is held, pop throw to 1st - if the runner is really fast, they MAY beat the 1st baseman's throw back to the catcher. But those throws are usually smoked, and most runners are gunned at the plate. Depends on the runner - and... never trade a run for an out.

You aren't kidding, in college ball NO tricks work!! That is an entirely different ball game. You better have top of the line skill, fundamentals, and knowledge of the game or you will get eaten up. Those girls know what weaknesses to look for, how to find them, and how to exploit the heck out of them. It was a very fun game to play, I played with and against some pretty amazing players from all over the country. They knew ALL the tricks!!

 

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I will still do it the way Kobata has stated since he has it down to a science in doing it the quickest way. He covers this play in detail with both the short stop and the second base having to make the play . He does not have them throw the ball to the short stop side of second base, that eats up time!

The SS has no chance to get a double play if the throw is to the bag to a SS. It also depends on which way the pitcher turns, left handed, or right handed. I can just tell you what many coaches teach, both in baseball and softball. It can not eat up time if the SS never breaks stride going ot the bag, they will get there when they get there, with or without the ball. There is a big difference between science and technique.

 

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Punchout almost every college camp I have been to teach Kobata skills, and the very best travel teams out west teach his methods. The slammers use to bring him in every year, so they could compete with the best out west. If you are saying his is wrong, I think you are going to get some heated disagreement .
http://www.softballskills.com/
http://www.softballskills.com/testimonials.htm

 

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Punchout almost every college camp I have been to teach Kobata skills, and the very best travel teams out west teach his methods. The slammers use to bring him in every year, so they could compete with the best out west. If you are saying his is wrong, I think you are going to get some heated disagreement .
http://www.softballskills.com/
http://www.softballskills.com/testimonials.htm

Trust me, most pitchers in college softball are taught to slightly lead the SS on that side of the bag.. Throwing to the bag, unless the SS is well ahead of the throw and the sliding runner, it makes turning a double play almost impossible.
MY DAUGHTER WAS TAUGHT to lead, dont tell me what only makes sense. If a ss gets the ball at the bag it will take two stps to throw the ball. if they catch the ball a step before the base, they will get the ball to first sooner. Obviously you guys never played pitcher.
A ss will get to the bag at the same time with or without the ball in their mit. Now, if they are only trying to get the lead runner, then throwing to the bag makes sense. Every pitcher I saw in mens softball leads the ss. After 25 years and 16 nationals, I think I have a clue as to how the game is to be played.