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Our coaches run both teams so we don't really have a conflict.
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My DD always did both and never had a problem adjusting to the level of pitching. Every pitcher you face in a tournament is not a stud.
I also kind of thought it sent a bad message to not play for her grade school team with her friends.
If there were any scheduling conflicts she always attended her travel practice or game.
I also kind of thought it sent a bad message to not play for her grade school team with her friends.
If there were any scheduling conflicts she always attended her travel practice or game.
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While I would acknowledge that trying to do both can create conflicts, and also present challenges in terms of things like adjusting to the pitching or different coaches telling you different things, I am going to take a contrarian opinion on this based on my experience in dealing with high school aged players.
First of all, as a travel coach, I wouldn't tell a girl at that age that she can't play on a rec team with her friends or high school teammates. I think if she enjoys doing that, then the travel coach doesn't have the right to say that she can't. Now, if she misses travel team activities as a result, the coach certainly has the right to "bench" her though you do run a risk of losing her enthusiasm of playing for you.
My daughter played in a June-July rec league with her high school teammates several years, against primarily other high school based teams in the same league. While she never missed a travel game to play in the rec league, I know she did miss a couple of practices because she was her rec team's best pitcher and they needed her some games to beat a rival, or to just have enough girls to field a team.
I'm not about to say what's right or wrong, but I am pretty sure if the travel coach would have either told her she couldn't go or benched her for going, I would bet a lot of money that she would have been pretty unhappy with that coach and, at a minimum, would have been looking for a new team or organization the next year.
As coaches, we need to remember at the end of the day that they're kids and not professional ball players. A coach can set whatever rules they want to make, but as opposed to a school program where the student athlete has to either abide by the rules or not play, a travel player can just move on to another organization that better fits her needs.
First of all, as a travel coach, I wouldn't tell a girl at that age that she can't play on a rec team with her friends or high school teammates. I think if she enjoys doing that, then the travel coach doesn't have the right to say that she can't. Now, if she misses travel team activities as a result, the coach certainly has the right to "bench" her though you do run a risk of losing her enthusiasm of playing for you.
My daughter played in a June-July rec league with her high school teammates several years, against primarily other high school based teams in the same league. While she never missed a travel game to play in the rec league, I know she did miss a couple of practices because she was her rec team's best pitcher and they needed her some games to beat a rival, or to just have enough girls to field a team.
I'm not about to say what's right or wrong, but I am pretty sure if the travel coach would have either told her she couldn't go or benched her for going, I would bet a lot of money that she would have been pretty unhappy with that coach and, at a minimum, would have been looking for a new team or organization the next year.
As coaches, we need to remember at the end of the day that they're kids and not professional ball players. A coach can set whatever rules they want to make, but as opposed to a school program where the student athlete has to either abide by the rules or not play, a travel player can just move on to another organization that better fits her needs.
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coachjwb - you make some very good points and an important distinction about what age the players are. Do you mind sharing if your opinion would change any if we are talking about younger players (12U)?
I think experienced high school aged players already know, or should already know, where the ball is supposed to go in certain situations, etc. They already understand the team defensive concept. Plus, most teams that age don't practice as a team anywhere near as much as the younger kids and when they do, they rarely have everybody there because of work, etc. I think a girl missing some practices in the scenario you described isn't really hurting the travel team all that much.
At 12U, players are still learning how to play winning team defense. I've just always believed that a properly run 2 hour intensive travel ball practice is more beneficial to a younger player than playing in a rec game, pitchers included. And I think there is no question that if you have kids missing several team practices at 12U, it will slow the development of the whole team. In the tournament on the weekend, you will have situations where 7 or 8 kids are doing what they need to, but the 1 or 2 that missed practice that week to play rec ball will not. And that will cost you runs and most likely games.
Many travel players only play travel. I agree that they are kids and this is just a game, but at what point is the travel team being hurt too much by some individuals who want to play both? Is it fair for the travel only players to have the team underachieve because they were not able to practice with everybody there and make the improvements that we all know can only be made thru practice?
I think experienced high school aged players already know, or should already know, where the ball is supposed to go in certain situations, etc. They already understand the team defensive concept. Plus, most teams that age don't practice as a team anywhere near as much as the younger kids and when they do, they rarely have everybody there because of work, etc. I think a girl missing some practices in the scenario you described isn't really hurting the travel team all that much.
At 12U, players are still learning how to play winning team defense. I've just always believed that a properly run 2 hour intensive travel ball practice is more beneficial to a younger player than playing in a rec game, pitchers included. And I think there is no question that if you have kids missing several team practices at 12U, it will slow the development of the whole team. In the tournament on the weekend, you will have situations where 7 or 8 kids are doing what they need to, but the 1 or 2 that missed practice that week to play rec ball will not. And that will cost you runs and most likely games.
Many travel players only play travel. I agree that they are kids and this is just a game, but at what point is the travel team being hurt too much by some individuals who want to play both? Is it fair for the travel only players to have the team underachieve because they were not able to practice with everybody there and make the improvements that we all know can only be made thru practice?
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Do they really miss that much for Rec League Play? I guess our situation is different because most of our girls play together on rec and travel - not all - but a lot of them so it's easier to still get those practices in. We usually play one or two rec games a week and have one or two practices so it's not common for players to miss all practices even when they play on a different rec team or some of them play AAU basketball at the beginning of the season and will miss for those games. All in all, in the scheme of a 10-11 month season they aren't really missing all that much practice.
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haven't read many of the responses in a while...
I hear coachjwb and ktrj and I agree with your points...
I'm glad that we said at tryouts "it's all us and no rec ball", the player and family can decide. I realize that not all programs fit for everyone up front. This decision (to me) is right up their with can you commit to our practice and weekend tourney schedule. So, when they approach me later (now) and they already know our answer. I'll cut them a refund check and hope the best for them-reluctantly since 10u talent is tough to gather. Since our staff does this "coaching thingy" for no charge (as many do), we have some upfront expectations of them as YOU KNOW THEY DO FOR US! Most of which is very obvious in how many wins, how much playing time their DD gets, etc. And, many are easy to forget when Sally, Jane, and Susie missed for Rec ball obligations and they see reduced time on the field. I don't want to be policing this stuff when running a high intensity practice with skill/fundamental development as our goal. One less issue and let me tell you it is much better in 2009 than 2008 because of this policy, not just for me, in the entire team's cohesiveness.
Now, we are probably pretty high on the flexibility scale (no bias here ;&). We encourage (the Static organization) girls to play other sports. Basic premise is that they learn other core strength agility skills, reactions, and muscle development (I know, their are studies that....I'm not going there). Our current indoor workouts have girls missing due to AAU B-Ball, Volleyball, and swimming-that's good. Once season hits for us, these other sports are up or nearly completed (unless they play year round) and we get their full commitment. Cool, good thing, we like it, and know it up front. Communication is the key!!
I hear coachjwb and ktrj and I agree with your points...
I'm glad that we said at tryouts "it's all us and no rec ball", the player and family can decide. I realize that not all programs fit for everyone up front. This decision (to me) is right up their with can you commit to our practice and weekend tourney schedule. So, when they approach me later (now) and they already know our answer. I'll cut them a refund check and hope the best for them-reluctantly since 10u talent is tough to gather. Since our staff does this "coaching thingy" for no charge (as many do), we have some upfront expectations of them as YOU KNOW THEY DO FOR US! Most of which is very obvious in how many wins, how much playing time their DD gets, etc. And, many are easy to forget when Sally, Jane, and Susie missed for Rec ball obligations and they see reduced time on the field. I don't want to be policing this stuff when running a high intensity practice with skill/fundamental development as our goal. One less issue and let me tell you it is much better in 2009 than 2008 because of this policy, not just for me, in the entire team's cohesiveness.
Now, we are probably pretty high on the flexibility scale (no bias here ;&). We encourage (the Static organization) girls to play other sports. Basic premise is that they learn other core strength agility skills, reactions, and muscle development (I know, their are studies that....I'm not going there). Our current indoor workouts have girls missing due to AAU B-Ball, Volleyball, and swimming-that's good. Once season hits for us, these other sports are up or nearly completed (unless they play year round) and we get their full commitment. Cool, good thing, we like it, and know it up front. Communication is the key!!
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Yes, I believe they are missing too much for rec league play at the younger ages. I actually look at it as a 4 month season (Apr-Jul). While teams are doing other things at other times of the year, the only time that I feel you can fairly expect mandatory attendance is during the traditional softball season. As Lester pointed out, girls play other sports and that should be encouraged and supported. Most teams do not have the opportunity to work on team defense in an indoor practice facility. So when a girl misses a winter practice it is probably hitting or grounders with a softie ball on a gym floor. She can hit on own and if she is taking private hitting lessons, she really isn't missing anything at all.
You need a full field and everybody there to learn how to play team defense. Period. Especially if you plan on rotating your players so everybody can play. They need to know multiple positions and they should be taught multiple positions at younger ages. Your overall athletic ability or softball talent level may still allow you to win the game despite the mistakes you are making, but it should be about maximizing the development and fulfilling the potential of your TEAM, not just winning.
If you practice 3 days a week for 2 hours in April and then 2 days a week for 2 hours in May thru July while you are playing weekend tournaments, that is about 36 practices or around 72 hours. If somebody misses just 6 of those for rec ball, they have missed over 15% of your practice time. I think that is too much. That's one girl - if you have 5 or 6 kids playing rec ball, you will be lucky to have 100% attendance at even 10 of those 36 practices. That's not fair to the kids who are only playing travel ball.
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I didn't know this was 10U we were talking about. They need to play as much as they can.
I am all for the travel team comes first and realize the importance of having the whole team at practice. Like dtrj said when its softball season its softball season. No missing games or practices for another sport, that includes rec softball. But the more the 10Us have a mitt in their hand the better.
I have gone through this once and I am now starting it again, I personally would look for another team. That's just IMO.
I am all for the travel team comes first and realize the importance of having the whole team at practice. Like dtrj said when its softball season its softball season. No missing games or practices for another sport, that includes rec softball. But the more the 10Us have a mitt in their hand the better.
I have gone through this once and I am now starting it again, I personally would look for another team. That's just IMO.
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Valid point about it perhaps being different for younger age girls. The really important thing you mentioned, Les, is about laying out the commitment expected from the girls up front. My daughter played both rec and travel slowpitch ages 9-12, and the coach was able to work the travel practices around the girls' rec league schedule. I honestly can't say what we would have done if we would have had to choose one or the other ... knowing what I know now, I would have encouraged the travel route, but I think at the time we might have thought the travel coach was an ego-maniac. 
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As Uber pointed out , at that age they need to play as much as possible. My oldest played on three teams at that age. I was dumb enough to coach on all three. That was a long summer.
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God bless you... better you than me.
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My daughter is in her second year of travel ball and I was happy to believe this would not be an issue for us this year. I believe she is one of the "extreme" girls JD100 was referring to that didnt work so well.
Last year she tried both. We were up front with her rec ball coach....travel came first. I thought we had an understanding, until she missed a few rec games for travel practice. We definately felt the tension from both the coaches and other parents when she showed up and cut into their child's playing time. Her rec friends/teammates even gave her a hard time.
If I were the coach, I would be happy my player was taking her game to a higher level and welcome her whenever she could make it. Unfortunately, she ended up leaving the team midseason as it was no longer fun. Not the games, but the environment.
Now she is having second thoughts, as she wants to play with her school friends and have an opportunity to pitch which she is not getting with her travel team. She is not in the top 3 pitchers on her travel team, but she loves to pitch and is pretty good at the rec level. This winter she gave it up as we didn't think she would play rec.
So, do I set her up for failure again in this rec environment or just move on?
She is only 11. Does she give up pitching even though she has the desire and committment? It's a lot of practice to never be given an opportunity. But who's to say she wont develop into a great pitcher later?
Last year she tried both. We were up front with her rec ball coach....travel came first. I thought we had an understanding, until she missed a few rec games for travel practice. We definately felt the tension from both the coaches and other parents when she showed up and cut into their child's playing time. Her rec friends/teammates even gave her a hard time.
If I were the coach, I would be happy my player was taking her game to a higher level and welcome her whenever she could make it. Unfortunately, she ended up leaving the team midseason as it was no longer fun. Not the games, but the environment.
Now she is having second thoughts, as she wants to play with her school friends and have an opportunity to pitch which she is not getting with her travel team. She is not in the top 3 pitchers on her travel team, but she loves to pitch and is pretty good at the rec level. This winter she gave it up as we didn't think she would play rec.
So, do I set her up for failure again in this rec environment or just move on?
She is only 11. Does she give up pitching even though she has the desire and committment? It's a lot of practice to never be given an opportunity. But who's to say she wont develop into a great pitcher later?
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George, I would say that she absolutely should play rec if that's what she wants to do, and has the desire to pitch. But a couple of questions ... is it the same coach and players/parents that gave her a hard time last year? Are they going to resent her or are you talking about her missing some of her travel commitments to play rec, thereby causing possibly another issue?
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George, you are correct... who's to say she won't be a #1 or #2 pitcher. If you are her instructor or take her to lessons, keep at it. See if your travel coach will let her play in pool play once she is ready or on her way to being ready. If the coach does some upfront planning (checking out who they play before the weekend comes;&), he may have a chance to get a #4 pitcher in a pool play game. If you are in a league-perfect!! This can give your DD the time to prove her abilities.
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Let her play rec. There is no better practice for her than pitching in game situations. If you want her to improve and that is what she wants to do she will need the game time on the rubber.
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I agree pitching in a rec game can be beneficial, but only if it is a competitive rec game. Then she is learning how to get batters out in pressure situations. If the league is at a level that she will rack up 15 strikeouts throwing nothing but fastballs, in my opinion, she would be better off spending 2 hours in the back yard working on her weakest pitch.
Don't let anyone tell your daughter at 11 years old that she cannot be a pitcher. But if pitching at a high level is your goal, I wouldn't play in a rec league unless it was actually going to challenge her. Keep in mind that the rec coach and players want to win too. If she's capable of striking high numbers out with fastballs, that's what he will want her to do. He will not want to see her walking kids while she works on her other pitches. JMO
Don't let anyone tell your daughter at 11 years old that she cannot be a pitcher. But if pitching at a high level is your goal, I wouldn't play in a rec league unless it was actually going to challenge her. Keep in mind that the rec coach and players want to win too. If she's capable of striking high numbers out with fastballs, that's what he will want her to do. He will not want to see her walking kids while she works on her other pitches. JMO
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I do agree with that. My dd played her last year of rec last year. Her coach only let her throw fastballs and change ups. I told her to work on her location. He really didn't need to know that part. It was still good for her to work on that much of it. IMHO
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I can see that point too. Just hope the opposing pitching doesn't mess with her hitting-that too can be debated with the proper hitting knowledge/instruction and how to approach sub-par pitching.
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We were fortunate in our league, we had quality pitching, but sub-par hitting. :lmao:
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we've all had those dreadful days... that's when you become the king of wild pitches and dropped 3rd strikes!
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