Referendum For Reformation

[default]

It's time for the vote. The Umpire Union Must go! This message, if carried ,should be notice to all TD. I have seen a transformation of a young team to a very good team and have absolutely thoroughly enjoyed the excitement of watching the competition when two very good teams play.
BUt, jumping in the fast lane brings with it some intrinsic gotchas I was not preapred for. That said, I have seen at least four of the worst calls/no calls that I have ever seen. AND, following Uncle Murphy, they have all been in the 7th or ITB.

First and foremost, I will not make excuses and I will not cry foul. This message is strictly in the spirit of improving the game. These girls (all of them) work hard to compete at high levels. They give their best and lay it on the line as we as parents and coaches expect. They, in turn, deserve the best from parents, coaches, staff and umpires as well. The girls come to play and prepare for these high-stakes competitions and should be given a fair chance. Make no mistake, these are high-stakes tournaments. Even with the rain problems, I saw at least seven D1 coaches at Stingrays this past Sunday. What if you were a player that was not on the radar yet and was destined to have a game but didn't because some dingleberry never came out from behind the plate except to ask for water and her team was eliminated because of some butcher job by blue. She did not get seen! We say things to players trying to earn spots like: you get your chance, make the best of it, etc. Then we have to say, well that was a bad call, it happens, forget it, put it behind you, it's part of the game, we will do it next time. That is BS. Fix it! We decide on pinch hitters for various factors like, she bats 490 against the current pitcher. Well, if you put in a bad umnpire, you are going to get bad calls. Simple game of numbers.....

I understand we are only human. I don;t presume to think that bad calls won;t happen. Everyone makes miskates and I am certainly not advocating instant replay. What I am saying is the umpires MUST work to get the play correct. They must work together. If the base umpire (in a 2-ump game) is blocked or sees it one way and the home base umpire sees it differently, they must make it right. One example is a base umpire who was lined up off the inside shoulder of the SS. Runner at second moves to 3b on the hit. She blocked the path and view of the fielder to the ball. Blue was blocked by the SS who moved to field the ball. He made a no-call. The coach asked the base ump for help and the home plate ump said 'his call'. In this scenario, I disagree. I mean, it is his call but the the home plate ump had a better view in front of the play and should have told the base ump what he saw. If it was different, they should have resolved it and upheld the no-call or overturned it. What happened was the base ump said basically, I'm right and the home plate ump washed his hands. If they saw it differently and could have resolved it, the play could have been made right. Because of this unilateral and tyranical approach, someone could have been cheated.

In summary, the 'good ol boy' network and the CYA approach has to go. Work to get the play right for the good of the players. It is not about the umpires. There are many umpires who do this and are regarded as 'great umpires'. If umpires are not willing to get the play correct, eject them. Eveyone is human, everyone makes mistakes, bad calls (depending on perspective) will happen. But if we add an element to try to ensure the play is made right, the game, the players and everyone else wins. As I said, many umpires do this and it doesn;t hurt or slow the game but does make it more fair. For those dissenters that say use the forums allowed like a protest. What happens when a judgement call is actually a misapplication of a rule. Also, have you ever written up a protest in a timed game with 31 games behind you or in the 4th game of the day. Unless you speak lawyer, it will be thrown out. That situation is very chaotic. Maybe we change that process (but that's a whole different post for another day)!

OBTW, in my opinion, the example play was clearly interference, runner out. The SS altered her approach to the ball (there doesn't have to be a collision to be interference).

 

[default]

Well said!
This has been the absolute worst year I have seen with blown calls or non calls. If the 2nd umpire sees the play differently, it should be discussed and corrected. The "its not my call" comment does not fly.

Is the fastpitch game growing at a pace where the umps cannot handle the game? It sure seems we are getting imposters wearing blue uniforms versus quality umpires.

Not making excuses for tough loses. Something needs to be done to make the umpires accountable. Afterall, they are not volunteers. They are being compensated to come up with the correct call.

 

[default]

I understand your frustration....trust me, I do. Bad calls, especially ones that determine the outcome of a game and thus additional opportunities for young ladies to be seen by college coaches want to make you jump out of your skin.

The problem however is due to the massive expansion of this sport at the travel level in a relatively short time. The more teams there are means the more umpires you need, and the more umpires you need means the more watered down umpires you will get. It's just the nature of the beast.

Len

 

[default]

I agree Lenski, the game sophistication has exploded and there is a waterring down affect. But why would they be at a showcase? And why would two lower grade umps be paired. AND If they were watered down type umps, should they not work harder together? I understand the needs but know what you know, know that there are things you don;t know and don;t be afraid to make and correct mistakes!

 

[default]

I do believe they are TRYING to make the right calls, I don't think anyone is intentionally making a wrong call and laughing behind anyone's back. We had some really bad umps this weekend and some really good ones, it's part of the game. You can't argue with judgement and you can't fix it, it is the way they see the play happen....how can you change that? I am 39 years old and have been playing or coaching softball since I was 5 and the umpires are still the same...some great, some good and some horrible. You can't change it so you have to teach your players to deal with it, it's part of the game. Trying to boot out the umpires union because of your dissatisfaction over a couple umpires will never happen, it will only insure you don't have umpires for your games. I like to have umpires, I'll keep the union.

 

[default]

I don't think anything is malicious. I think it is incompetence and arrogance. If it was experience, it will get better. The Union is a metaphor for the incompetance, the arrogance and the lack of willingness to admit a mistake and correct it. Those, I'm afraid, can all be fixed!

 

[default]

Klump you are right too ...... I too have been exposed to it for 35+ years ... umps vary from game to game. Difference between when I was 12 and now my daughters being 12 and 13 .... my games were umped by kids my own age at the time .... the girls always had adults. Now that we have the sanctioned umpires, I believe we all expect an ump (or umps) to come up with the right call. Judgement calls are judgement calls. I do not think any player / parent / coach has a problem with the split second calls, we all understand that the close calls are going to go one way or another. Even if the call goes against you, in the back of your head you say "man that would be a tough one to call" ....... it is the complete blown calls where one umpire may be out of position or maybe the 2nd umpire was in a better position to make the call.... Our girls were in a game where there had already been three blown calls AGAINST us ........ the fourth blown call, which went in our favor, was a throw down to third .... our 3rd baseman swung her glove around, missed the girl by a foot .... the base ump (clearly out of position, behind the play) called her out .... the home plate ump (who later admited the tag was not made) saw the play and did not over turn it. The 3rd base coach turned and says "You guys got one of your calls back".

Again, blown calls and judgement calls are part of the game .... if one of the umps clearly sees the play, why not make the right call?

At this past weekend's Buckeye Showdown, each team was to grade the umps. I think this is a great idea if something is actualy done with the data. Granted, one team who may have been wronged will probably have sour grapes. I say keep a history of data .... the umps who constantly get bad ratings should be limited to their local rec league to gain experience.

 

[default]

Although I do like the umpire evaluation that is done at the Bill Beckhem events, I have to say that awesome's criticism of umpires is in my opinion way overblown. We've had a lot of calls this season with which I disagreed, but we have also had a ton of errors and lack of offensive production by players and bad decisions by coaches. But I don't consider any of our players to be bad players and I don't think any of our coaches are bad coaches. There are some bad umpires but they are very few in my opinion; most umpires just make mistakes like the rest of us who are involved in the game.

And to talk about the compensation of umpires as a rationale for demanding more professional rules and oversight is a joke. With the price of gas, the prices of the equipment that an umpire has to have if he or she is going to do more than one sanction, and a myriad of other costs such as certification courses, umpire compensation for making (usually in sweltering conditions) quick judgment calls or calls based upon rules that are often ambiguous is way lower than fair compensation. In my opinion, the vast majority of the umpires do games because they love the game. There are a few that do it because they love to be the center of attraction, and I'd like to see those umpires leave the game, but they are so few in number that branding an entire group of people as requiring increased oversight or even as requiring elimination of a union (that, by the way, hasn't been very effective with regard to pay) is not warranted.

We tell our players to try to take the umpire out of the game by getting hits on pitches that are arguably balls and by improving their technique on defense so there are fewer judgement calls. Does this mean that we never get a bad call? Absolutely not.

I think it is very unfair to paint the teams as being so committed and so talented while implying that umpires are not. I bet you that at 16U the Lasers Scarlet don't worry much about the umpires. Unless and until your team reaches that level of talent, look to your players to work to take the umpire out of the game and just accept that umpires will make mistakes just like your coaching staff and your players.

I do find it ironic that awesome (whose choice of iamawesomenoyourenot doesn't endear me to this person) talks about how hard it is to file an effective protest and how you have to have lawyering skills to do that; as a lawyer, I find that the fastpitch rules are about as hard to understand and apply as most legal codes and I reserve the word awesome for umpires like Bretman who work constantly to get better at that job.

 

[default]

While I understand some critiques of umps, people need to answer this question-Did you see it right? You never hear someone on here telling a story about how an ump got a call wrong that benefitted your team?.?

You may be looking at the plays wrong becasue you want your DD to get the call every time.

Yes there are some bad calls on the field but not that many to really cause us to lose the game. You had one bad call, but how many strikeouts did your team get that game, how many errors in the field, or how many pop ups right to people.

I am a parent who teaches their child that life can be unfair, but my DD will never complain about an ump when she has errors or strikeouts next to her name. IMHO that just makes her look like a whiner (and really ignorant).

I tell the girls to stop whining and get out there and just play your game. Don't give them a reason to make a bad call. I also want the girls to just ask the ump why the call wasn't given to them so that the players can learn what that ump is looking at. At a certain age the players should know how to approach the ump and there should be no need to have a screaming coach who probably doesn't even own a rule book make a fool out of themselves.

Now I have also seen some coaches just calmly come out talk to the ump and walk back in-much respect to you coaches. But, to the others-does it ever really work? I mean do you honestly think that if you yell at the ump they will change the call? I sure as heck don't want you involved with training my DD. Stay away please. JMHO. Sorry just had to speak my mind-Monday morning and had a long hot weekend.

 

[default]

Sorry CGS. I read your post after I posted mine. I guess that we feel about the same with this thread.

 

[default]

@init:

Yep, we do feel the same. And yep, I've posted several times without realizing that someone else had already posted to the same effect while I was drafting mine.

 

[default]

Thanks CGS and I agree. That's all I'm asking for: The umpires to police themselves
and dilligently work to become better and perform better just like the players. Also, I'm not complaining or crying, I am only offering an observation specifically for one segment of the game and do not want to get it mixed with how the players and coaches handle the results. My problem is with those who don;t know what they don;t know and won;t try to get better. If everyone works to better themselves, everyone wins. I also do not like the mentality that I made the call and that's that. GeowardJr has it right, if another ump sees it more clearly, call it or correct it but Get it right, therein lies the meat of the post; Not bad umpires, bad calls and bad players, improve the process! Coaches, parents and players police their performances, is it wrong to ask for the same standards from the officials.

Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about the ambiguity of the rules. They are pretty clearly defined. And as with golf, the small number of rules are not without a very large number of interpretations which are documented to cover the nuances of the game. These are all covered, with examples, in the certifications and courses you mentioned. I do however see a problem for coaches who don't always have the time to get to those types of meetings or clinics and rely on experince or reading the rules themselves. Those coaches with vast experience, by attrition, become comfortable with the rules and interpretations if they have not done the clinics. Protests must include the rule violated and a clear succinct treatment of why it was violated, in written form. Anything even remotely out of place in these scenarios seems to get the protests thrown out.

Lastly, the name is a parody sparked from a rap song. "I'm Awesome, No You're not", whether ironic, satiristic, paradoxical, sarcastic or whimsical, it is meant as humor pure and simple. I do apologize if I have disrespected the law profession. It was not my intention. You will have to admit, though, generally speaking legal documents are a difficult read for most lay people.

 

[default]

We lost a game at Stingrays with the help of a bad call. We clearly threw a runner out at first but the first base coach loudly screamed safe and threw out his arms in the safe motion and by gosh the field ump followed suit. We yelled to the ump not to let the coach make the call. Third base coach came over to us laughing and admitted that was one terrible call. Would be nice to see the ump admit at some point it was a bad call. Better yet if he would have corrected the call as he had to know he blew it, it was that obvious. But that is part of the game and if you go in knowing that you won't be suicidal when it happens. And if we were a better team we wouldn't have let that one blown call keep us from winning the game.

 

[default]

@awesome:

You don't have to apologize for any affront to the legal profession. I'm the first to agree that by virtue of its reliance on "legalese" to require lay persons to obtain a lawyer on what should be easily resolved issues, the law profession is deeply marred. My point, on which we will have to agree to disagree, is that the fastpitch rules are also difficult to interpret and apply. I've seen too many posts from Bretman citing exceptions to one rule created by another rule to think that the fastpitch rules are clear and easy to interpret.

This weekend we had a call that we didn't understand and the umpire was honest enough to give us his explanation but to also say he would look further into the proper rule application. I'm more than ok with that, as I think it is not realistic to expect umpires to have full recall of all the rules, points of emphasis, and case interpretations while the game is in process. I do agree that if the call is critical and the tournament results affect something like playing at a nationals tournament, the protest mechanism should be more readily available, both in temporal and substantive terms.

And BTW thanks for the explanation of your user name.

 

[default]

Try to notice the following at your next DD's game

The close calls which could go either way .... you will hear cheering on one side and complaints from the other.

The obvious blown calls, you will hear the compaints from the team who was wronged and sometimes complete silence from the team that benefited from it.

Last week I had complimented an ump for making the right call on a close play .... he questioned if I was breaking his chops ... It was a genuine compliment because we had so many calls go the other way.

As far as the compensation goes .... yes they probably do it for the love of the game. However, they are not volunteers. Two of the umps who parked by our team at the Buckeye Showdown said they were both unemployed and used their ump cash to help pay bills. (I had asked how they were able to get off work every Friday when games seem to be starting earlier and earlier each week)

It is agreed, some umps are great - some horrible - some middle of the road. No, an ump does not always affect the outcome of the game. Bottom line is if another ump sees the play clearly, they need to make the correct call. Lose the "it's not my call" attitude.

 

[default]

There is no "umpire union". Umpires are independent contractors. If we "get rid of them all"...then who umpires your games? If you think you can do a better job and would like to volunteer, I can give you all of the information to get signed up.

There seems to be a HUGE misconception that one umpire can "overrule" another. Nothing could be further from the truth and stating so just serves to reveal an ignorance about actual umpire protocol. This is covered in the rule book, under Rule 10, the section that covers umpires. Has anyone taken the time to read that?

On the call in question, interference is a judgment call. One person's judgment might not always be exactly the same and it is fairly impossible to say if the right call was made or not without seeing it. We're getting one side of the story here- and it is a side from someone that obviously has a strong emotional attachment tied to the outcome of the call. It would be nice to know what exactly the umpire saw and judged, but we don't have that luxury in this forum.

When the coach went to the base umpire after the play...what explanation did he get? Did he give some reason as to why he did not call interference on this play?

Again, the other umpire can't just jump in and say he saw something different and reverse a call. They're not supposed to do that! He can talk with the umpire that made the call and if the umpire who made the call can be convinced that he missed something, only he can reverse his own call.

If you went to the plate umpire and complained, the correct response would be, "It's the other umpires call". If he reversed the call on his own, he would be breaking the rules covering umpire conduct.

On the surface, some might think this a draconian procedure, but if you think about it it's not. Suppose that on any given play, either umpire could overturn the other's call at a whim. What happens if two umpires make opposite calls? One overturns the others call...then the other umpire overturns him...so it gets overturned back again...this system simply would not work! What should they do if there is a difference of opinion...flip a coin?

What if the plate umpire calls a strike and the base umpire doesn't agree with it? Do you think that he should be allowed to overturn that? What if one calls a runner out, but the other thinks the runner was safe? Pistols at fifty paces?

The premise is that umpires are responsible for their own calls and that no umpire should ever overrule another. They can get together after the play and the umpire that made the call can change his call- or not change it- as he sees fit.

If the umpire gives you an explanation that is a misinterpretation of a rule (like on this one, if he told you that the runner has the right of way when a fielder is in the act of fielding the ball) then the coach has a legitimate protest. Contrary to what has been said, filing an official protest is not difficult. All the coach has to do is state his intention to protest and which rule is being protested (not the exact rule number, but the interpretation of the given rule). Pretty easy to do actually.

(I will also note that having to pay money to file a protest is NOT in the rule book and not something I agree with. If your tournament is requiring a fee to file a protest, that is a rule they have come up with on their own. But it still does not prevent a protest from being filed as intended under the rules.)

 

[default]

I wondered about that union thing. Thanks for the clarification Bretman. And for the explanation why the rules don't allow frequent overruling in games. I do find it ironic that those who said the rules were easy to interpret missed the implications of Rule 10.

 

[default]

bretman, I defer to your expertise however, I did not say get rid of the umpires. I do believe they should be assigned based on their experience and by merit. I cite the example of the plate blue who did not come out from behind home plate (at a showcase, really). As far as rule 10, I did not say overrule the umpire. But the coach asked the base umpire to get help from the home base umpire who had a better or different view. I believe it is their obligation to ensure they get the right call and the base umpire should have asked the plate umpire, 'what did you see?' He should have then made the appropriate ruling whether it upheld the call/no call or overturned it. I have seen many good crews do that very thing.

As far as protests, see my post for how far do you protect. I asked very nicely and explained very clearly that I wanted to protest the aplication of the rule. I was told, no protest, sit down or go home. And I have also been involved in tournaments that the protest rule says, list the explict rule.... Not so easy. Then we have the old interpertation thing, communications aren;t always clear. I had one case where the base umpire called it wrong, the home plate umpire didn;t know ebough to rule, the 3b umpire was told to back off and the comittee not only got it wrong but actually said, the way this is written up you have no protest. They weren't interested in getting the call right. As far as knowing the exact rule, 8.2.M.4, I will never forget that one again.

 

[default]

Rant time about umpires from a seasoned catcher haha :::This weekend at buckeye showdown there was a really young umpire, he had to have only been 18 or 19. He had the most inconsistent strike zone ever. I don't know if he understood the fact that the ball moves because he was moving with every pitch. We would never know the call (out,safe,ball,strike) because he was tooo quiet and half the time wouldn't say anything. He never knew the count, everytime i asked him he would give me a blank stare. And another issue, know why you called it a ball. Me: "Was that too inside? or too high?" Him: "Yeah" Me: "Which one?" Him: "UM Both" .. He was afraid to ask the field umpire for help. On a check swing there were three of us asking him for help, once again the blank stare. So we just had to ask the field umpire ourselves. ... Next the ball hit the girl outside the box, of course he didn't see it. He gave us the blank stare when we asked for help, finally he went to the field for help. He just looked like a lost scared puppy. Honestly the two young umpires we've had this summer have been the worst. I understand that everyone has to start somewhere, but maybe it's best to start with younger girls where the game isn't as intense. We are 16-18 and ,this may sound drastic, but our college future is on the line in many if not most of these games. If they start younger for a few years, get the hang of the game and understand the rules then maybe they can come play with the big girls. But I shouldn't the rules better than the umpires. plain and simple.

 

[default]

@goewardjr:

I never said umpires were volunteers. I said they were underpaid (I doubt all the bills for the umpires with which you spoke were covered by the umpire income) and that in my opinion most of them were doing games because they love the game.

But you know, the more I think about it, the closer I come to the "volunteer" label. I think there was a thread a year or so ago that set forth the expenses of umpiring versus the income and that analysis got pretty close to a net income of zero. Maybe I'm mis-remembering that, but the net income from umpiring has to be pretty darn low. Especially if any travel is involved.