Referendum For Reformation

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Easy to interpret...:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: I must have read those rules from cover to cover a thousand times and some of them I still have to read over and over to get what they are saying. I'm with you cgs, easy to interpret my butt!!

 

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Hey folks, the UNION is a metaphor. Not explicit. As far as the implications for Rule 10, there was nothing missed, check Paragraph 3 of the post. The coach asked the base umpire to get help from the plate umpire who had a better view (10.3.B). In each case this was disucssed, I clearly treat it as the base umpire would have to make the call. The home plate umpire must relate what he sees. Finally, would you explain 'jeopardy'
in 10.3.C and clarify 10.1 (... any situation...) and ...general information...

 

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Rant time about umpires from a seasoned catcher haha :::This weekend at buckeye showdown there was a really young umpire, he had to have only been 18 or 19. He had the most inconsistent strike zone ever. I don't know if he understood the fact that the ball moves because he was moving with every pitch. We would never know the call (out,safe,ball,strike) because he was tooo quiet and half the time wouldn't say anything. He never knew the count, everytime i asked him he would give me a blank stare. And another issue, know why you called it a ball. Me: "Was that too inside? or too high?" Him: "Yeah" Me: "Which one?" Him: "UM Both" .. He was afraid to ask the field umpire for help. On a check swing there were three of us asking him for help, once again the blank stare. So we just had to ask the field umpire ourselves. ... Next the ball hit the girl outside the box, of course he didn't see it. He gave us the blank stare when we asked for help, finally he went to the field for help. He just looked like a lost scared puppy. Honestly the two young umpires we've had this summer have been the worst. I understand that everyone has to start somewhere, but maybe it's best to start with younger girls where the game isn't as intense. We are 16-18 and ,this may sound drastic, but our college future is on the line in many if not most of these games. If they start younger for a few years, get the hang of the game and understand the rules then maybe they can come play with the big girls. But I shouldn't the rules better than the umpires. plain and simple.

This is my point folks.... these futures are bright and precious... lets all endeavor to get it right for them, period......

 

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@ t luvs:

There were three really well-attended events in the Central Ohio area last weekend. I'm thinking maybe your gripe is not only with the umpire who based on your description was incompetent but also with the TD who scheduled a competing tournament without any way to get competent officials for all the games. Although the younger ages hate the fact that the less experienced umpires get assigned to their games, I have to agree that the more experienced umpires should be assigned to 16U and 18U.

 

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cgs: I understand that it may have been hard to come by umpires this weekend, but if i'm not mistaken buckeye showdown had younger age groups. I know TD's have alot on their plate when puting a tourney together, so this issue was most likely not their biggest concern, but I'm not saying this is entirely his/her fault. In a perfect world I wouldn't have youngins trying to ump the big girls but beggers can't be choosers and it's ultimately up to us (the players) who wins or loses the game.

 

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Maybe the TD of one big event got his umpires lined up before the TD's of the other big events. It's all about who gets them first.

Len

 

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there are good umpires at all age levels, i know that for a fact, sitting

 

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I can't help but wonder what is going on in most of these dugouts. What are we teaching the girls. I have to go back to my original post. My DD better never complain about an ump if she has errors or strikeouts next to her name-she knows that I will laugh and walk away.

Are we teaching the girls after a loss that they were fine and that it was all the umpire's fault (trust me I have heard it from other teams). Not a way that I want my DD taught.

My DD gets respect from umps because she will ask the ump herself about a call nice and calmly. After she gets the explanation she says thanks and moves on. Some rules are interpretation based. Why wouldn't you find out their interpretation and just do it? Being around travel ball for a long time, I would also need to recommend to most people to take the mommy/daddy blinders off and look at the team's stats (errors/strikeouts) vs. how many times the team complains about the ump's "bad call." The number may surprise you.

As CGS talked about-I don't think that Laser scarlett let that interfere with them winning.

Good, solid, hard working teams just move on. File your protest and let them decide-sounds simple enough to me if you know the rules and don't get red faced and keep yelling.

 

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Folks, some of these people are cross overs that work any of the letters and sometimes more than just one of these: ASA/NSA/USSSA/GSA/OHSAA. There just isn't any place to generate more officials from.

And to boot this is a huge weekend all around the state for umpires to work. NSA had one in Lancaster that had close to 45 teams, Troy had close to 40 teams, and Uncle Stans in the Cleveland area had close to 50 teams. I know Showdowns had 100+ teams as usual and Stingrays had there usual large amount of teams. Findlay has a large tournament as does USSSA in the NW OH area.

I got a call Thursday late in the PM from our Kentucky state UIC who had 73 FP teams starting Friday at noon in Lexington, KY wanting to know if we had anyone that could come. And he was throwing not only rooms into the mix, but also willing to hand them extra $$ to cover gas and food for the weekend.

Our Indiana state director had something like 45 teams in Columbus, IN that she would gladly have taken 6-9 from Ohio to help out with.

There has always been something about the weekend AFTER the 4th of July holiday that brings out the teams and I mean all of them and then some.

@ t luvs:

There were three really well-attended events in the Central Ohio area last weekend. I'm thinking maybe your gripe is not only with the umpire who based on your description was incompetent but also with the TD who scheduled a competing tournament without any way to get competent officials for all the games. Although the younger ages hate the fact that the less experienced umpires get assigned to their games, I have to agree that the more experienced umpires should be assigned to 16U and 18U.

 

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Mike - I asked this question 7 years ago in Ohio and 5 years ago in Florida and got the same response. Since you brought it up I will now ask in Ohio again?

If the ASANSAUSSSAPONYISA Associations know there is both a numbers and an age issue (age meaning the good umpires are getting old enough not to want to ump anymore) what are they doing to address it?

The TD's and the teams are the customers. Is it simply a supply and demand issue where the TD's have to offer everything but the kitchen sink to get the number of umpires they need - which is passed on to the teams of course.

 

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I had some great umpires and some not so great umpires this weekend at coffey. Come to think of it that is every weekend in travel ball. My first year coaching I would scream and yell, even got tossed once because an umpire blew a call and refused to look at the ASA rule book I was trying to show him to prove his interpretation and explanation was TOTALLY wrong.

Now in year 5. I start each game with a hand shake and make sure to get thier first names. If I have a question about outs or count I call them by their name. If I disagree with a call I ask to speak to them and quietly discuss my disagreement with their call. I have learned if you try to show them up your strike zone becomes the size of a pea and any call that is possibly close or judgement will go against your team.

My parents know that other than an OOHHH or AWWWW they are to let me manage the umpires. The more that I do this the better the umpires seem to be.

Friday morning during the rain delay as the umpires came in I saw 10-15 umpires who came up shook my hand and ask how I was doing and what my field assignments and game times were as they hoped to get to do one of my games. I really believe that by giving them respect I have earned theirs and they do their best to give me their best effort every time out.

I had to laugh at one strike call though. It was a beautiful curve ball that hit the outside corner and broke away. The catcher had to reach a bit further outside. I asked the umpire where we missed and he smiled and said out side. Next pitch was the 3rd strike, third out. My catcher comes in and says "coach blue said to tell you he was sorry he missed that curve".

 

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Mark I can't speak for the other letters, but I can speak for us. WE are beating the bush every day looking for new blood. What is a good idea is what the folks in Lancaster have been doing. Before anyone new steps foot on a field, they first have to pass the NSA umpiring test. Then they have to be willing to either start 8u coach pitch or 10u single umpire. Now granted if this is someone with extensive experience like working one of the other sanctions or a recommended high school/college official, they usually just get "scouted" at there next assignment be it the blue or red.

I do not know the answer, but I do know people are way too hard on officials. It is the one job where you are expected to walk on the field perfect and improve on that. These guys/gals do not go to bed thinking up new ways to show up teams or screw the coaches. Things can happen fast out there and even the best ones get brain-locked a time or two.

Mike - I asked this question 7 years ago in Ohio and 5 years ago in Florida and got the same response. Since you brought it up I will now ask in Ohio again?

If the ASANSAUSSSAPONYISA Associations know there is both a numbers and an age issue (age meaning the good umpires are getting old enough not to want to ump anymore) what are they doing to address it?

The TD's and the teams are the customers. Is it simply a supply and demand issue where the TD's have to offer everything but the kitchen sink to get the number of umpires they need - which is passed on to the teams of course.

 

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I saw the call that started this thread. A no call on an interference play in which there was no contact but the shortstop clearly changed her path to the ball and it got under her glove and the tieing run scored on it. To boot it happened again on the next play and to his credit he did call them both the same. Too many times inteference is not called when contact does not occur but it not a requirement for the call to be made. This umpire refused to call blatant illegal pitches in the game prior to this one and blew a couple of calls in that one as well. That crew just was not a very good crew and it was unfortunate as it did play a big role in determining the outcome of that game and ultimately the winner of the tournament. The calls in the previous game had no bearing on the outcome of that game.

Like coaches, there are some really good ones and there are some really bad ones and a whole lot in the middle. In the course of a season you pretty much break even on them and as someone said earlier we only talk about the bad ones. There are some pretty darn good ones out there.

 

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Mike - it still sounds like you are waiting for them (umpires) to come to you. That is the same answer I have heard for years. Not just from your letters but from everyone. How would a restaurant survive if their business increased 10% every year and didn't advertize, recruit and train new servers. If they rely on walk up applicants or word of mouth the quality of associate they get is a **** shoot. In tournament softball it is the TD that takes the shots for everything - including umpire issues even though they don't directly control the process. The business adage of recruit, train, educate and retain should be a key objective of the alphabets long range plan.

In my opinion it is pretty simple:

* Identify where you want your future umpires to come from
* Go to them and recruit
* Train them, test them, employ them
* Support them
* Continuing education required
* Develop an evaluation process. I was very fortunate when I was up there because I worked with 2 different UIC's that took their roles VERY seriously. Both of these ladies were on the fields watching both the umpires and the spectators. You can't believe how many issues they handled in a very professional manner. Both of them pulled umpires off the field between innings in the middle of games. They also helped calm down parents - and if they couldn't I did. They didn't need an evaluation process. It was their rep on the line.

If I were a regional UIC I would require each umpire to speak to at least one teams parents meeting a year. Good PR and educating parents is never a bad thing.

Hearing the same reasons as to why we are going to be in trouble as this line of umps retires drives me crazy. It is a thankless job, but it is a job nonetheless. Run it like a business - believe me the LETTERS know it is one.

 

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Not really "waiting" for them to come to us, but recruiting with tact. Contrary to public belief there are still "games" that get played when it comes to loyalty. There are certain umpires that wear other colors who are scared to death to get caught on the field wearing another color for fear of reprisal from there assignor or local UIC. We recruited 2 guys who worked the OHSAA state semi-finals this year that told me that once word gets out they worked some of our tournaments including the state, their umpiring days wearing the other colors are going to be limited if they get any assignments ever again from their assignor. Now all of this is with the caveat of the fact that umpires are "independent contractors". These guys/gals are not dumb:they know where there bread is buttered.

I feel that your words are very good advice, but feel that it is better to take this to a private forum for fear of me "stepping" on someones toes inadvertently or on purpose.

Mike - it still sounds like you are waiting for them (umpires) to come to you. That is the same answer I have heard for years. Not just from your letters but from everyone. How would a restaurant survive if their business increased 10% every year and didn't advertize, recruit and train new servers. If they rely on walk up applicants or word of mouth the quality of associate they get is a **** shoot. In tournament softball it is the TD that takes the shots for everything - including umpire issues even though they don't directly control the process. The business adage of recruit, train, educate and retain should be a key objective of the alphabets long range plan.

In my opinion it is pretty simple:

* Identify where you want your future umpires to come from
* Go to them and recruit
* Train them, test them, employ them
* Support them
* Continuing education required
* Develop an evaluation process. I was very fortunate when I was up there because I worked with 2 different UIC's that took their roles VERY seriously. Both of these ladies were on the fields watching both the umpires and the spectators. You can't believe how many issues they handled in a very professional manner. Both of them pulled umpires off the field between innings in the middle of games. They also helped calm down parents - and if they couldn't I did. They didn't need an evaluation process. It was their rep on the line.

If I were a regional UIC I would require each umpire to speak to at least one teams parents meeting a year. Good PR and educating parents is never a bad thing.

Hearing the same reasons as to why we are going to be in trouble as this line of umps retires drives me crazy. It is a thankless job, but it is a job nonetheless. Run it like a business - believe me the LETTERS know it is one.

 

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There seems to be a HUGE misconception that one umpire can "overrule" another. Nothing could be further from the truth and stating so just serves to reveal an ignorance about actual umpire protocol. This is covered in the rule book, under Rule 10, the section that covers umpires. Has anyone taken the time to read that?

On the call in question, interference is a judgment call. One person's judgment might not always be exactly the same and it is fairly impossible to say if the right call was made or not without seeing it. We're getting one side of the story here- and it is a side from someone that obviously has a strong emotional attachment tied to the outcome of the call. It would be nice to know what exactly the umpire saw and judged, but we don't have that luxury in this forum.

When the coach went to the base umpire after the play...what explanation did he get? Did he give some reason as to why he did not call interference on this play?

Again, the other umpire can't just jump in and say he saw something different and reverse a call. They're not supposed to do that! He can talk with the umpire that made the call and if the umpire who made the call can be convinced that he missed something, only he can reverse his own call.

If you went to the plate umpire and complained, the correct response would be, "It's the other umpires call". If he reversed the call on his own, he would be breaking the rules covering umpire conduct.

On the surface, some might think this a draconian procedure, but if you think about it it's not. Suppose that on any given play, either umpire could overturn the other's call at a whim. What happens if two umpires make opposite calls? One overturns the others call...then the other umpire overturns him...so it gets overturned back again...this system simply would not work! What should they do if there is a difference of opinion...flip a coin?

What if the plate umpire calls a strike and the base umpire doesn't agree with it? Do you think that he should be allowed to overturn that? What if one calls a runner out, but the other thinks the runner was safe? Pistols at fifty paces?

The premise is that umpires are responsible for their own calls and that no umpire should ever overrule another. They can get together after the play and the umpire that made the call can change his call- or not change it- as he sees fit.

If the umpire gives you an explanation that is a misinterpretation of a rule (like on this one, if he told you that the runner has the right of way when a fielder is in the act of fielding the ball) then the coach has a legitimate protest. Contrary to what has been said, filing an official protest is not difficult. All the coach has to do is state his intention to protest and which rule is being protested (not the exact rule number, but the interpretation of the given rule). Pretty easy to do actually.

(I will also note that having to pay money to file a protest is NOT in the rule book and not something I agree with. If your tournament is requiring a fee to file a protest, that is a rule they have come up with on their own. But it still does not prevent a protest from being filed as intended under the rules.)

I understand everything you are saying here, but I think perhaps the other umpire should have a way of signalling the ump who made the call to indicate "hey partner I saw something that can help".

We had a very arrogant ump two weeks ago who was set up behind the shortstop. I was in the 1b dugout, ball hit slow roller down 1b line. Our 1b fields the ball, applies the tag but does so completely opposite where the FU is standing. FU indicates safe while me and my coaches saw and heard the tag being applied.

I called time and approached FU and asked if he would ask for assistance from the PU. He said, "there is no reason to I saw the gap a foot wide where she missed the tag!". I said "will you please ask anyway?"

What does he do? He says "fine", then instead of attempting to confer with PU hollers across the field "HEY I DIDN'T SEE A TAG, DID YOU SEE A TAG?"

REALLY?!?

 

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Yes ClassicPride, that was the call that inspired the thread..... And for those who just refuse to get my message about the 'union', therein lies the definition. Umpires that think (not saying that one did, speaking globally only) a collision is necessary for interference need a better definition and/or better training so they get that call right. IN the rule book: impedes, hinders or confuses... contact is NOT necessary. I believe all of the criteria were met. So what is that umpire's definition? He probably needs more experience to get a clearer defintion of what that means. Same with Mad Hornet's issue. To refuse to make the call,to refuse that maybe 'my' definition is wrong, to intimidate or stand behind an associate you know is wrong, or in the case where a bigger (man), a more 'connected' ump told a younger (experience, woman) to 'back off, it's my call', that is the 'Union'. It is incumbent upon the crew to get the play correct or they are simply cheating the girls. Now for those that read only what they want to read.... I have not addressed anything regarding the human element of making a mistake. Those happen. I am only addressing those from scenarios such as these where they won;t make sure by asking for help, etc.... In one case a ball was overtrhown and went out of play. The plate ump awarded the girl home who was standing on second when the ball went out of play. Good call? Maybe, but in this case no. His explanation was that an overtrhow from the field is awarded two bases when it goes out of play. The defensive coach asked for help and two of the three concurred. One umpire stepped in and said, it is two bases when the ball was released by the fielder. Hence she had not achived second and was put back on third. The play was corrected. Unfortunately the position of the umpire was overheard and he said, thanks for backing me up, now I am embarrassed in front of the spectators. Unfortunately I can not agree with this position. The embarrassment was not that the call was originally made incorrectly and certainly not because it was corrected. The embarrassment is caused by the expectation, the union (once again a metaphor) and it's time for the union to go!

 

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Maybe I should start a thread about all the dumb stuff coaches have said or done in my games this year... (It would be a long thread.)

Believe me, there is enough stupid to go around. I'm sure I could match anything you're complaining about from the umpires blow-for-blow.

Not really sure about that last one. Who cares if one of the crew said something like, "Thanks for backing me up". That's just a stupid comment that has no bearing on the game or the girls. Why even give it a second thought? The fact is that his partner didn't just blindly back him up on a wrong call, and they did correct their mistake, and they did "make it right".

But that's not good enough?

 

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Bretman - what do you do when an umpire in the pregame meeting says "If you question a call I will kick you out of this game."? Then during a game he says that a batter stepped on a bunted ball (and she clearly did not and he made the call from left feild) and the home plate umpire says she didn't but he says that it his call and batter is out. The home plate umpire then apologizes for his "partner" after the game. It happened at Berliner this weekend.

I never question a strike zone. It is what it is and we adjust and play the game but an umpire that will not work with the other umpire, players, and coaches does not have a place in the game IMHO.

 

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"What do you do when an umpire does something he's not supposed to do that isn't supported by any umpire manual, training clinic or written rule?"

I'm not really sure how to answer that. Back when I coached, I just made a mental note that, "This guy is an idiot", and tried to work around it. I'd probably ask him right there, "You mean that if we have a question about a call and want to talk to you about it in a civil manner, you're not going to let us do that?".

Just maybe he'll soften up and say something like, "Well, if you're civil about it, you can ask a question about a call". You never know.

If the guy says something like, "You heard me and that's right", I'm going to respond, "Why not?". Arguing is one thing, but if the umpire is being a jerk about it, I was never one to just roll over and accept it.

Now that I'm an umpire, I just try not to do or say stupid things like that.