Scoring Question

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Game last night. Runner on first. Runner takes of on pitch to steal second. Catcher makes good throw (actually hits sliding runner in foot going into bag). Shortstop got a horrible jump and didn't make it to the bag. Ball goes into outfield. I originally scored the error on catcher, later discussed it with a couple people and changed it to SS. What is the correct scoring on the error? Thanks

 

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Could just simply be a stolen base for the runner. Sounds like a mental error on the SS and, according to a different thread (and supporting stuff from NCAA and Atec), mental errors aren't errors. http://www.TheSoftballZone.com/vb3/general-softball/51247-what-error-you.html

 

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I would also have scored the error on the ss. As long as the catcher's throw was on target and would have made it to the bag in the air. If the ball bounce to the bag I would given the error to the catcher.

 

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If it was a good throw but hit the runner on the foot as she was sliding in, it sounds like it would be a stolen base (no error) on reaching second. If the runner advanced to 3B when ball went into OF, then the advancement to 3B would be scored as an error on the catcher.

 

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coach, the runner did go to third, and that is how i originally scored it. Just didn't seem right that a catcher has to throw to the bag when runner takes off and trust that the SS will be there. The throw was perfect, Shortstop was caught sleeping. If the SS was there, the throw (in the air) would have made the tag for her..lol. Just felt guilty, wanted to double check with some opinions.

 

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I get you, but I stand by the scoring ... stolen base for the runner, and runner advances to third on throwing error by the catcher. And if the throw had not hit the runner and had just sailed straight through into CF, it would still be an error on the catcher. Same thing holds true if an infielder throws to 1B and no one is covering ... error on the throw if the runner advances to 2B. Playing devil's advocate, the fielder always has the choice to hold/eat the ball ... if they choose to throw it and no one is there to catch it, it's always scored as an error on the throw if the runner advances further ... albeit, it was probably a mental error on the "receiver".

 

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I get you, but I stand by the scoring ... stolen base for the runner, and runner advances to third on throwing error by the catcher. And if the throw had not hit the runner and had just sailed straight through into CF, it would still be an error on the catcher. Same thing holds true if an infielder throws to 1B and no one is covering ... error on the throw if the runner advances to 2B. Playing devil's advocate, the fielder always has the choice to hold/eat the ball ... if they choose to throw it and no one is there to catch it, it's always scored as an error on the throw if the runner advances further ... albeit, it was probably a mental error on the "receiver".

I don't claim to know the proper ruling but I can't see how a good throw to a bag that should have a player covering be an error on the thrower. If the catcher waits until the ss is at the bag the runner would be safe 100% of the time. Is a SS waits for the 1st baseman to get to the base again runner is safe 100% of the time. You have to trust that your team will be where they are suppose to be and if they aren't it should be their error. Again not a rules expert by any means just my humble opinion.

 

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Every time a fielder attempts to throw or catch a ball, there is a chance that an error will occur. Errors happen ... they are part of the game. There are guidelines about who to charge errors to in certain situations, just like there are around charging earned runs to pitchers, giving batters credit for hits, etc. A coach can certainly choose to keep whatever record they want of what happens in a game, and who does what how. But if there is going to be comparability with other players from other teams, then ideally you have as many people following the same guidelines as closely as possible, otherwise you lose credibility and stats become meaningless outside the immediate team. Personally, as a coach, I am going to know that the reason the catcher had some errors was because my SS failed to cover ... I don't need the stats to validate that. I'd rather have stats that are consistently applied.

 

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I don't claim to know the proper ruling but I can't see how a good throw to a bag that should have a player covering be an error on the thrower. If the catcher waits until the ss is at the bag the runner would be safe 100% of the time. Is a SS waits for the 1st baseman to get to the base again runner is safe 100% of the time. You have to trust that your team will be where they are suppose to be and if they aren't it should be their error. Again not a rules expert by any means just my humble opinion.

The thrower shouldn't wait for someone to be on the bag. They do have to recognize when the receiver isn't going to be there in time to catch their throw on the bag and then they have several options - 1) eat it, 2) hold up a little so the receiver has time to get to the bag, 3) throw to the receiver so they catch it on their way to the bag or 4) throw it to the bag and hope OFer keeps the runner from advancing. It is a throwing error if it allows a runner to advance an extra base because they just made a bad situation worse.

 

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I agree with coachjwb, error on catcher. The mistake many people make in scoring a game is in assuming the scoring will be fair or make sense. This sounds like the play might have been the fault of the SS, but scoring rules charge this error to the SS. It's like a misjudged fly ball; it's usually not an error, which is unfair to the pitcher, but that's how scoring goes. As coachjwb said, he will know in his head why the play broke down, no matter what the stats might indicate.

 

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From the NCAA Scoring Guide:

14.21.4 An error shall be charged against any fielder whose throw takes an unnatural bounce, touches a base or the pitcher's plate, or touches a runner, a fielder or an umpire, thereby permitting any runner to advance. Apply this rule even when it appears to be an injustice to a fielder whose throw was accurate. The official scorer must account for every base advanced by a runner.

 

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From the NCAA Scoring Guide:

So if it's a perfect throw, say waist high, to second base and does not take an unnatural bounce, touch a base or the pitcher's plate, or touch a runner, a fielder or an umpire but the ss is not there to catch the ball whose error is it because this rule does not seem to cover this situation. Disclaimer: my daughter is a catcher. LOL

 

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This is a toughie. My DD is also a catcher so I know how hard it is to put E2 in the score book (actually, it is real easy).

14.21.1 An error is charged against any fielder for each misplay (i.e., fielding, wild throws, missed catches on good throws) that prolongs the life of a batter (causes one or more pitches to be thrown) or a runner or permits a runner to advance. This includes a dropped foul ball (unless it was allowed to drop intentionally to prevent a runner from advancing), whether or not the batter subsequently is put out.

SECTION 22-NO ERROR IS CHARGED No error is charged to a fielder in the following situations:

14.22.1 When a ball is misplayed because of being lost in the sun or lights, blown by the wind, or if the fielder slips and falls - even if contact is made with the ball.
14.22.2 When there is a mental mistake. Throwing to the wrong base is considered a mental mistake.
14.22.3 When a catcher attempts a pick-off, unless the runner advances an additional base.
14.22.4 When a runner returns safely to her original base on a rundown.

Mental error = no error on that player. But, who's to say that the SS is just real slow.....so now I use the "missed a catch on a good throw" and charge the SS with an error. But, what if the SS starts toward the bag and slips....no error. But, you have to account for the runner getting third base. Hmmm. Maybe we can hang this on the Centerfielder...... Hopefully she bobbled the catch or even had a bad throw to third base.

 

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It's not that tough. Players throw the ball for another player to catch. If they throw it where it can't be caught, it is a wild throw. Even though catchers are trained to throw to the bag, they're still responsible for a throw that can't be caught.

Fear not, a decent CF should keep the runner from advancing to third. They'll likely bail out the catcher by either keeping the runner from advancing or making an error that allows them to advance. Heck, it might even end up being pinned on F5.

 

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My question would be: "who is looking at your team's fielding stats"? If I want the data to be useful, as a coach I would prefer to see the error charged to the person who was truly at fault, in this example the SS. Otherwise, what is the point of even keeping stats on fielding if you are inputting data that is falsely skewing a player's performance?

 

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Just because I believe this is bordering on comical at this point, what if the catcher throws it, the ss has a mental mistake and does not cover the bag, the ball goes to the centerfield, the runner takes off for third, the center fielder throws it to third and they get the out. Is this considered a 2-8-5 put out? As my girls would say, "just saying". LOL

 

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Yes, 2-8-5 ... seen it happen many times ...

 

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All, yes it can seem comical at times, especially at the younger age groups. But thankfully at the older age groups things are settled down and it is easier to correctly score a game. The scoring guides, just like any rules or laws, have gray areas that allow for some interpretation by the scorer at the site. When I started as a scorekeeper for our HS team, the girls were not used to what they deemed as strict scoring. But by the end of my run as scorekeeper, the girls were just as hard on themselves (scorekeeping-wise) as I or any other objective scorekeeper would be. Mission accomplished.

 

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My question would be: "who is looking at your team's fielding stats"? If I want the data to be useful, as a coach I would prefer to see the error charged to the person who was truly at fault, in this example the SS. Otherwise, what is the point of even keeping stats on fielding if you are inputting data that is falsely skewing a player's performance?

Couldn't have said it better myself. As I've said before, scoring by ATEC or NCAA guidelines is great IF you want to compare your stats to another team's. If you are using stats to identify opportunities for improvement in your own team, giving the error to the catcher because SS didn't do her job is not in the least bit helpful to the coaching staff.

 

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I put it on the catcher too, and I imagine our coach would not soon forget that SS failed to cover. Probably address it immediately and better never have to again.