Hitting and Hitters Discussion Softball swing -VS- Baseball swing

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bretman and PurpleJack, you folks have a firm grip on rotational hitting techniques.

If everybody had to use a heavy wooden bat then everybody would HAVE to use rotational mechanics. Astroturf followed by aluminum bats was the main reason for the explosion of hand throwing linear hitting mechanics. Some folks found out that if you just made solid contact then you could get ground ball base hits through the infield on Astroturf...think of the St. Louis Cardinals of the 80s. As aluminum bats became lighter and filled with more "pop" you could get base hits by just using your hands to make contact.

Folks are finally realizing that with all of the "pop" in these bats that more girls are capable of hitting the long ball by utilizing the "effortless power" that comes from rotational mechanics. Rotational mechanics uses physics (the law of angular momentum) to allow a player to use all of the power in their body instead of just using the hands and arms.

Fastpitch was started by men who simply went from playing baseball to playing fastpitch...they didn't decide to use a different hitting technique, they just played the way they always played.

If you stay inside the ball (keep your hands connected to the body) and rotate around the front hip you can generate tremendous power. Watch the great power hitters in MLB and they all use rotational mechanics. Adam Dunn almost breaks his front ankle as he rolls over it because of the force of his rotating body. I believe it was Barry Bond's 700th HR that after the swing, his back foot was on home plate...because he rotated and didn't have his weight on his back foot. Babe Ruth's back foot was always flying around because he rotated the weight off of it. Guys like Williams, Aaron, Mayes, Musial et al weighed only 180 pounds or so (some lighter) yet they hit many monsterous 500+ foot HRs because of the power that comes from the rotational swing.

Good discussion folks!

 

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Extreme example of the back foot "coming up" on a rotational swing...

Remember Kirk Gibson's gimpy knee'd World Series homer for the Dodgers from way back when? Keep your eyes open for the video- they replay it a few dozen times during the course of every baseball season.

Gibson's back foot is entirely off the ground when he makes contact.

Hitter, it sounds like you and I are describing pretty much the same hitting technique, especially if you are using the RVP software.

Where many people get tripped-up is on the terminology. Every hitting instructor will have their own terms and definitions, as well as their own cues and methods to get their students to acheive their goals. Two different teachers can use totally different terms to describe the same desired mechanics to their students.

I'll still stick to my contention that what is used by the world's elite hitters, and what is taught by the RVP software, would most conventionally be termed as "rotational" technique. From swing launch to contact the hands are traveling in a circular path and the body is rotating around an axis.

While the pre-launch stride, step or, as you call it "dance with the pitcher" has some "linear" component, with the body moving forward prior to planting the front foot and initiating the swing, this "linear" movement does not involve the hand path and, in fact, once the swing begins the forces generated are entirely from rotating. Once the actual swing begins, any "linear" movement is virtually eliminated.

Same mechanics being described, different terminology being used. This is always a source of confusion in hitting instruction.

 

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bretman Thanks for the input. I basically agree however the tag put to rotational mechanics is step,stride and stop and then start the hands. Using RVP it allowed me to see in slow motion how the hips continue to move forward (linear) into rotation off the lead hip keeping the momentum going to get maximum power. When I see the heel of the backfoot tilting backwards and not up this to me was rotation without a linear movement and in my opinion less power applied to the ball.

The way I show hand path is by using a tennis ball with about 18 inches of a rolled up rag stuffed and glued inside it. I then put the ball over my shoulder and holding the rag end with the lead hand, I start the rag moving forward using my lead arm elbow to start the movement, then the hand and hit a five gallon bucket about two feet off the ground. I stop my hand to what would basically be the inside of the ball and allow the ball to follow a circular path to hit the bucket. I then repeat it allowing my shoulder to start first and you can't hit the bucket.Don says to release the bat to the ball and I agree but this is set up to try and get them not to pull with the shoulder but to lead with the elbow inside the path to the ball.

 

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Bink44,

Nobody said Hitter wasn't knowledgable. Most of us agree however that he is just crossing up his lingo. All of the instructers he refers to and the RVP system all train people to use the rotational style swing.

My guess is he just latched on to the term linear one day and stuck with it. I will agree with you it is much more important what you do and teach than what you call it. It just might confuse players if they ever go to another hitting coach or clinic.

 

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hitter, are you saying that rotational hitting is a step, stride, stop, and then hands? If so, this is not what Epstien teaches and he is the guy that took Williams' technique (with Williams' input) and came up with the phrase "rotational hitting." The old timers didn't call it "rotational" they called it hitting.

Epstien teaches a wide stance and you pick up the front heel and drop it. This triggers the front elbow to go up while simultaneously triggering the hips to release. The hips lead the hands and once the hips go, they will pull the hands through as the body rotates. The back elbow is "slotted" (down and close to the body) and the hands stay "inside the ball" (connected to the body). The arms are still bent and the bat head is slightly behind the hands at contact (the hands and arms haven't released yet). The hands and arms release after contact. This is typical in a great golf swing as well. If you can get your hands on a copy of June 2004 Golf Digest there is a mention of this on page 111.

 

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Food for thought...

The elbow positions you describe- front elbow up, back elbow slotting- is sometimes described as "weathervaning". You may have heard this term. I can't remember if Epstein uses it, or maybe one of the other hitting gurus.

But is this elbow positioning a cause or effect?

Is the swing plane made to match the pitched ball path by this "weathervaning" technique (cause)?

Or, is the elbow position we see the result of other mechanics used during the swing (effect)?

There is documentation and theory that this elbow positioning is the result of other actions. The theory goes something like this:

1) Swing plane should closely match pitch plane.

2) The rotation of the shoulders during the swing should be perpendicular to the axis of the spine.

3) For items #1 and #2 above to happen, there must be a pronounced backwards pelvic tilt by the hitter. By tilting the pelvis, the shoulder rotation can be BOTH perpendicular to the axis of rotation AND slightly upward to match the pitch plane.

The degree of backwards pelvic tilt is greater for lower pitches, less so for higher ones.

4) It is the backward pelvic tilt that causes the front elbow to APPEAR to be going up, and the rear elbow to APPEAR to be slotting close to the rib cage.

5) The elbow position described is an EFFECT of this pelvic tilt to get on plane with the pitch and not the CAUSE that makes this planar adjustment.

Try this for yourself. Stand in your normal hitting stance, then tilt your pelvis so that your torso goes backwards. You should see that the elbows will roughly get into the position described- front elbow up, rear elbow "slotted".

I hope that makes sense. Again, this is the theory of some hitting instructors and differs somewhat from Epstein's material.

One absolute KILLER to a quick swing is if the rear elbow gets ahead of the hands. This can be a problem if the hitter is consciously trying to get that rear elbow in tight against the rib cage. This will create what some instructors refere to as "bat drag".

The resulting drag "might" actually produce a small increase in maximum bat speed, but will absolutely reduce bat quickness- the time it takes to get the bat from loaded position to contact.

While the younger girls might be able to get away with this- and a host of other hitting flaws- as they progress and face tougher pitching, this reduction in bat quickness can be a fatal flaw.

In conjunction with the pelvic tilt to set swing plane I described above, here is another way to describe the elbow positions to get maximum bat quickness.

Think of a four cornered "box" being formed by these four points: the batter's front elbow, the batter's hands and each of her shoulders.

During the load and swing, try to maintain this "box" without collapsing it. You'll find that the elbow position will be very close to what Epstein describes, but this technique will eliminate the swing-killing "bat drag" that can happen when the rear elbow gets in front of the hands.

But then again, that's all just one guys opinion! ;D

Watch as much video as possible of the world's best hitters and I think that you will see many of these concepts for yourself.

 

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The position I described is an EFFECT, however, I was lazy in my typing and didn't go into great detail. I was just kind of describing what it looks like as opposed to giving all of the details. Epstien teaches the hitter to "sit" on the back foot which I believe is what you are referring to when you talk about backwards pelvic tilt. He also talks about matching the plane of the pitch, so semantics may be the difference in what we are trying to discuss. In the golf article I mentioned earlier, they talk about "spine-tilt thrust" which may be the same thing you and Epstien are referring to...BTW, I'm not a golfer I just happened to be reading Golf Digest in a hospital waitng room and happened upon the article.

 

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bcatfan...The rotation I've seen being taught to the girls and being described as rotational hitting is load up,step, stopping your forward movement and swing pushing the hands forward and not in a circular path. This does not allow your momentum or hips to go forward. I hope this clears it up.

Up until you step/shift your weight there are any number of ways Pro's use to get ready to hit and after that they all look pretty much the same as seen on the RVP systems. Where the elbows are or the position of the bat prior to toe touch is style and there are many.

I know who Epstein is and Bat speed .com.

Cause and effect...heard that on Hitting Mechanics.com. Tell Mark H. I said hi.

I admit I had a weak momemt when I answered a post on this subject. Game,set,match you all win.

 

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hiter is definately a :-/name dropper

 

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You make a good point about technique vs. style. Style is what happens before and after the swing and it can make hitters look completely different even though they use the same hitting technique.

I saw a video that had Musial and Williams in split-screen and their swings looked very different. They were then made into stick figures, one blue and one red and in the split-screen they still looked completely different. Once the stick figures were laid over top of each other, you could see a red figure and a blue figure until they reached the "universal Launch" position in their respective swings and the figures lined up and made one purple stick figure. After contact the stick figures seperated again and you saw a blue figure and a red figure.

There are innumeral styles, but the technique should be vertually the same.

 

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bballcoach, I don't want to argue but I will lol.The pre-swing of RVP is linear and it follows some of Charlie Lau Jr principle's, who BTW was A-rods Hitting instructor when he first came up in 94/95. His father Charlie Lau Sr was George Bretts lifelong hitting instructor. There is a book that Lau Jr wrote about 3 years ago, that is really good, and he defends his fathers Linear methods (which were slammed by the mainstream in the 70's) which show that most of todays great hitters use a combination of this method. Now on the other side, one of the greatest hitters of all time, Theodore Williams, was strictly a rotational hitter and thats why our baseball history of the 40's has a term called the "Ted Williams Shift" for pull hitters. This strictly rotational method is what my generation was taught and over the years I have went away from. But as "Hitter" said when your a rotational hitter, you leave a lot of power on that back foot, plus your front shoulder tends to pull out and lead instead of your front elbow, thus decreasing how long the sweet part of the bat stays in the hitting zone-plate coverage to all fields. With this being said, I don't believe a strictly rotational hitter can handle what all the California (from the Corona Angels to the Lakewood Ladies) teams pitch, which is low and outside corner, low and outside corner and low and outside corner!!! Now before you ripp me, I know they will bust you in on your hands every once and awhile to keep you honest. lol. It's just I believe in the same princeples as "Hitter" does- I guess thats a part of why we get along! After rereading my post I do seem a little brash, and thats not my intention, as those who know me and DD's know thats the furthest thing from our family, but I'm not a good writer and I'm too lazy to edit. lol.

 

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With Bink44's last post this brings another thing to my mind when it comes to hitting and watching professional BB as well as fastpitch softball. ?Great pitching will beat great hitting most of the time. ?
If you take a pitcher, as Bink has referred to in his previous post, that throws low and away, its not going to matter what style of hitting you are using, its going to be extremely hard to lift and drive that low outside pitch. ?I would say nearly every long homerun in BB as well as SB was a mistake pitch. ?On the BB replay you will hear nearly everytime the announcer saying "he hung a curveball out over the plate, or his sinker didn't sink", or hear during the college world series that "so and so caught up with that riseball." How many times have you seen these great hitters swing foolishly at low outside pitches.
From my personal experiences with my daughter as well as the girls I coach most of their power shots came off of mistake pitches. ?
With this being said, if more people focused on the mental aspect of hitting as opposed to the "pelvic tilt, squashing the bug, load or preload, hands in, hands out, slotted, wheathervaning, linear vs rotational" or whatever you want to call it, I believe alot of these girls would be more succesful.
Do most of you realize that your at bat starts when you step into the on deck circle not into the batters box. ?Mental preparation when it comes to hitting can be as important if not more than the physical aspect.
How many girls become better hitters with two strikes than with no strikes??
How many coaches have confidence in their batters with two strikes??
I've seen first hand, girls that have confidence to hit with two strikes are better hitters. ?Why? ?Most pitchers and coaches that get ahead with two strikes will go for the strikeout resulting in mistake pitches. ?Nobody wants to walk a batter, so they go for the strikeout and "oops" there it goes.
There has been so much talk on this thread about this style or that phrase, but I believe most of us all are teaching our girls relatively the same thing when it boils right down to it.
So how do you hitting experts handle the mental aspects of hitting? ;D ;D

 

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Ted Williams wasn't the first "rotational" hitter. Sholeless Joe and the Babe were "rotational" hitters even though they didn't know it. LOL 95% of all of the position players in the MLB HOF are rotational hitters.

I'm not sure about the comment about the length of time the sweet spot is in the hitting zone, but one of the main points of rotational hitting is that you match the plane of the swing to the plane of the pitch which maximizes the time that the bat is in the hitting zone. The "weak" spot for rotaional hitters is the high pitch which does make the hitter susceptible to the riseball, but the good hitter should learn to identify the riseball and lay off of it because rarely is the riseball a strike. The low pitch is the perfect pitch for the rotational hitter to hit.

Ted Williams always said, "Get a good pitch to hit." Mike Epstien, a Williams disciple, put out a book last October about the mental game of hitting and how to out-think the pitcher (I haven't got a copy yet). You can have the greatest swing in the history of baseball/softball, but if you are guessing at the plate you won't reach your potential as a hitter. The perfect swing occurs only when the hitter gets the pitch they expect, at the speed the expect, in the location they expect. Too many coaches send their hitters to the plate with 2 strikes on them by telling them to look away, react in. You are in effect telling the hitter to look for 2 pitches on 1 swing and that greatly reduces their chance of having the perfect swing. The hitter should be going to the plate sitting on a particular pitch...and I hope all of our opponents keep taking a pitch until they get a strike.

 

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Lady_knights, you are absolutly right about the mental game, especialy the part about your AB starts the moment you step in the on-deck circle. Have you been reading the "the Softball Coaching Bible-chapter on mental preparation? lol. If not, you are right in line with one of the best mental preparation chapters I've ever read! Anyway you can get lift and distance from a pitch 6" high and 3" outside the strike zone. Perfect example is DD #2 out of 4, a notorious rotational hitter in the past. By the time "Hitter" is done with all our drills she is consistantly ripping (6" high & 3" outside) soft-toss into the marked section of net! It's also shown in games as KO's have become minimal. Again before I get ripped LOL, I'm aware that most travel girls can ripp line drive after line drive on softoss, but just with my experience with my girls I've never seen them handle this pitch (low&outside) with such authority up the middle. Hitter, I'm going to give you a call this evening, with all this talk on hitting, a couple of questions are eating at me! LOL. ;D

 

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Yes, the mental approach a hitter takes to the plate is an important aspect of the overall hitting picture.

I tend to think of that as another aspect of what can make a hitter successful. The physical approach (mechanics) and the mental approach are two sides of the same coin.

Every hitter should have a game plan as they come to the plate. This plan can be affected by many variables: what is the pitcher throwing and how is she throwing it, what is the game situation, what pitches has the hitter been successful with on previous at bats. As the at-bat unfolds, the hitter's strategy can change based on what she has seen and what pitch count she is facing.

The successful hitter will thrive on mistakes by the pitcher. But, if her mechanics are poor, what are her chances of being succesful against even these "mistake" pitches, let alone the tough pitches she sees during an at-bat?

We do tend to get technical when discussing swing mechanics and terminology. Just because we do, we aren't saying that mechanics alone are the end-all and be-all for a successful hitter. The mental approach is a vital part of the picture and without it the hitter greatly reduces her chances of success.

The two (mental/physical) go hand-in-hand. However, without a mechanically sound, fundamental swing, even the best laid game plan will be of little use.

 

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bretman, again I will commend you on your post-very well said! If you get a chance e-mail me some time so we can discuss the finer points of hitting. BigBink2000@yahoo.com

 

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Bretman Amen

 

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I am surprised and ashamed (at myself) that we have 4 pages talking about hitting and the third and perhaps most important factor in hitting hasn't been brought up. ?Like the fire triangle that needs fuel, oxygen and an ignition source, in hitting you need proper mechanics (which is always discussed first), the right mental approach (which we just started bringing up) and the God-given ability to put the bat on the ball. ?Hand-eye coordination is perhaps the most important part because you are born with it and while you can work to improve it, you will not improve it very much...you either have it or you don't. ?I've always thought of it like the football player with 5.0 speed in the 40 yard dash. ?You can work and diet and train and you may get that 40 time down to 4.8, but you will never be a 4.5 40 guy...you either have it or you don't.

Barry Bonds has all three. ?I don't care much for Bonds the person, but I'm a big fan of Bonds the hitter. ?He has the time-tested rotational mechanics down pat, he has one of the best "eyes" the game has ever seen and he can put the bat on the ball. ?Whether or not he takes (or has taken) steroids doesn't matter. ?IMO, the available evidence points to the possibility that he has used performance enhancing products, but to me that just means that the balls that land in McCovey Cove would only land 30 rows into the bleachers. ?Bonds has the swing, the hand-eye coordination and the discipline to only swing at strikes.

BTW, I believe there is room in this game for slapper/bunters, linear hitters and rotational hitters. ?If you are a linear hitter and hit for a high average don't change. ?The game needs baserunners and it needs the big swinging rotational hitters for run production. ?Do what fits you best.

 

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Regardless of who's pitching, where the pitch is, what the speed of the pitch is, the goal on every swing is to be in the optimal position to most effectively strike the ball as hard as possible -- it's all about increasing probability factors for success, not guaranteeing success
I think Lewis & Clark went on a straighter path to the West Coast three centuries ago than some of the descriptions of swings above.
And yes, T. Williams had a tremendously linear path into his swing

 

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I think that fastpitch is going to become a long ball game as much as a small ball game and there is going to alot more home runs in the next years. Ask Michigans head coach how many home runs they hit in 2005.