Someone send out the bretman signal

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Look Back Rule:

Situation one - Runner on third, batter walks and is sent to second. Pitcher gets ball back in the circle. NO attempt to throw out either runner. Pitcher has ball in the glove.

Question one - Can the runner be off the base at third once the runner passes first base on her way to second and if so can someone (Bretman) copy and paste the rule stating it.


Situation two - Runner on first. Pitch made, runner leads off. catchers walks toward runner at first pitcher has one foot in the circle and one foot out of the cirlce. Runner is two to three steps off first. Catchers throws the ball back to the pitcher. Pitcher stares are runner but NO attempt to throw at runner. Still one foot in the circle and one foot out of the circle. Runner still off the base.

Question two - what is the call? Also can someone(bretman) copy and paste the rule.

 

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John this should cover it. It is both feet. Had this called a few times wrong by blue over the years.

LOOK-BACK RULE (Fast Pitch) (Rule 8 Section 7 T).
When a runner is legitimately off base after a pitch, or as a result of a
batter completing their turn at bat, and is stationary when the pitcher has
the ball in the circle, the runner MUST immediately attempt to advance to
the next base or immediately return to the base left.
The responsibility is entirely on the runner. There is no obligation on the
pitcher to look, fake or throw.
A. The “look back” rule does not go into effect for any runner until the
batter-runner touches first base or is called out, and the pitcher has
control of the ball within the eight foot radius circle.
B. Failure to immediately proceed to the next base or return to their original
base after the pitcher has the ball within the circle results in the runner
being called out.
C. Once the runner returns or stops at any base for any reason, the runner
is out if they leave that base.
EXCEPTION B-C: A runner will not be declared out when:
1. A play is made on another runner, or
2. The pitcher leaves the circle or drops the ball, or
3. The pitcher releases the ball to the batter, or
4. The pitcher places the ball under their arm or between their legs
to free both hands to fix their uniform, hair, etc. The ball is not
controlled unless it is held in the glove or hand. Once the pitcher
controls the ball again in the glove or hand, the “Look Back” rule
is again in effect.
D. If multiple runners are off base and more than one umpire calls a runner
out, the umpires must determine which runner was called out first
and return the other runner(s) to the base they left. When a runner is
declared out in this situation, the ball is dead. It is impossible to call
two outs on the “look back” rule.
E. A pitcher fielding a ball in the circle is an infielder and runners can leave
their base. If runners leave their base, the same rule applies while the
pitcher holds the ball in the circle: once the runner stops, they must
decide which way to continue or be called out.
F. A base on balls or a dropped third strike is treated as a batted ball if
the batter-runner continues past first base without stopping or stops
only once and then immediately moves one way or the other. However,
if the runner stops at first base and then steps off the base after the
pitcher has the ball in the circle, the runner is out.
G. Batter-runners overrunning first base can not start back to the base,
and before reaching first advance to second base. If a batter-runner
commits to first base, moving toward first base, the runner must return
to that base. The batter-runner may not change their mind and advance
to second base once they have started moving directly to first
base following the overrun. If they do so, the runner is out. Umpire’s
judgment determines what is committing toward a base.
H. If a runner is moving toward a base, other than first base, when the
pitcher receives the ball in the circle, that runner may stop once then
immediately advance to the next base or return to the previous base.
A runner failing to advance to the next base or return to the previous
base should be called out. Making an attempt or fake justifies the runner
being called out. If, after the pitcher has the ball in the circle, the
runner starts back to their original base or forward to another base and
then stops or reverses direction, the runner is out unless the pitcher
makes a play on them or another runner. When a play is made on any
runner, other runners may also stop or reverse their direction.
I. A runner is out when standing off the base and they do not immediately
attempt to advance or return after the pitcher has the ball in the
circle.
J. While in the circle and in possession of the ball, any act by the pitcher
that, in the umpire’s judgment, causes the runner to react is considered
making a play.
K. The pitcher must have control of the ball while in the circle. Placing
the ball on the ground, holding the ball between their legs or under
their arm is not considered having control of the ball.
L. Being in the eight-foot circle is defined as both feet within or partially
within the lines. The pitcher is not considered in the circle if either foot
is completely outside the lines.

 

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You can also go online and get the case books.

I have the one for USSSA but I am not sure if NSA, USSSA, ASA interpret the rule exactly the same. The case book pretty much covers all your questions to a tee and gives rulings.

BTW- I have had to explain the rule to umpires in the past in Fall leagues and friendlies (I never talk to umps during tournaments.......). Amazing how many people do not understand this rule and its application. And I am not an umpire. I just play one from the stands.....butr seriously, people need to respect the game and read the rules and case books. After reading all the rules and case books you would not have many questions left. It is all covered.

 

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rule 2 section 45 the 16 foot circle is used for the look back rule. A pitcher is in the 16 foot circle when both feet are within or partially within the line. The feet may touch the line AND extend outside the line.

 

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I am thinking the runner in question one can be off the bag, but either in the act of returning to it or home would be the answer, but not standing still. She could be a slow walker but still with movement occurring she's good??

 

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I'm sure someone is laughing after my post. They know I carry a casebook and most of the umpire manuals in my blue bag. Case in point. Two years ago playing in Gahanna in a 16U tourney. 1. Runner is off first with the pitcher looking at her with one foot outside the circle. Blue calls the runner out for not returning back to first. 2. Runner at third walks back to third slowly, gets called out for not returning fast enough. Same game same umpire, I almost got tossed , but made it a point to show the umpire what the case book stated. He admitted he was wrong. So just because you know the rules, doesn't mean you are going to get the correct call. Problem was it was after the game and he cost us at least 2 runs. Bret had some calls questioned in his last game I watched , so I do agree all sides need to read the rules.

 

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Coop,

You probably already have your answer. I'll just throw in my two cents...

#1) Runner from third may be off the base when the Look Back Rule kicks in. Once it does, she must immediately either advance to the next base or retreat to the previous one.

#2) As already noted, one of the requirements of the LBR is for the pitcher to have both feet within, or partially within, the circle. If a foot is entirely outside the circle then the LBR is not in effect.

 

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Get what you were looking for Coop?

 

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Bret had some calls questioned in his last game I watched, so I do agree all sides need to read the rules.

GASP! Which ones!

I know that I had about a half dozen in the four games Saturday that I would have loved to of had a base umpire to help me out. Working solo sometimes forces you to make calls at a great distance and at a bad angle.

 

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As always I got what I needed. This place is great.

SBfaminly is talking about the ball hit down third and the 3rd baseman argued the call with you.

Thanks to All that answered.

 

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Player arguing call not good. I would sit her but down.

 

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Bret got both calls right. Players were wrong in both cases. WWolff, I agree

 

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I remember exactly which play you're talking about.

Line drive down the third base line. I saw the ball bounce just short of the bag, near or possibly touching the line (which at that point has no bearing on the ball being fair or foul), then the next bounce was in foul ground past the bag (which really doesn't have anything to do with fair or foul either).

Of course, fair or foul is determined by where the ball was when it passed OVER the bag. From my angle it looked like it just crossed the corner of the base in between bounces. That makes it a fair ball and that's what I called it.

F5 began arguing that the ball was foul, while pointing at a spot a couple of feet in foul ground. She didn't really push it after I stated that I had a fair ball. If she had, it might have got her removed from the game. I asked her coach to address it with her and he did.

The other play that the coaches put up a mild argument about involved a possible hit batter. On an inside pitch the batter turned away from me, so that her bat and hands were in front of her. That gave me a perfect view of the batter's back! I heard the sound of the ball hitting the bat and watched the ball roll out into fair territory. I ruled it a fair batted ball.

Batter claimed that the ball hit her hand. It's possible it did, but if it did I had no view of it at all. Unfortunately, you can't make a call based on what the player is telling you. You have to go with what you can see and hear then make your best determination of what happened. This is one of the most difficult calls for a plate umpire to make as his view is completely blocked. If there had been a base umpire I probably would have checked with him since he might have had a better view of the batter's front side.

So, yes, those were two calls that the coaches probably think they got robbed on. On the first one, I'm about as sure as I can be that I got it right. On the other one, that's a tough call where I had to go with what I could see and make the best judgment I could.

 

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At Sluggerfest 16u last year runner on 3rd and a walk. Catchers throws ball back to pitcher, my runner stays off the bag and ump rings her up even though batter that walked had not reached 1st. I bring out the rule book. The umps look at each other. "Did you know that" "Nope". Reversed call. In stead of inning over we score 4 more runs then hold on for a 1 run victory.

 

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At Sluggerfest 16u last year runner on 3rd and a walk. Catchers throws ball back to pitcher, my runner stays off the bag and ump rings her up even though batter that walked had not reached 1st. I bring out the rule book. The umps look at each other. "Did you know that" "Nope". Reversed call. In stead of inning over we score 4 more runs then hold on for a 1 run victory.

I'm impressed they overturned the call, even more that they let you bring out a rule book. You must have approached them well.

 

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I'm impressed they overturned the call, even more that they let you bring out a rule book. You must have approached them well.

I called time and said I thought they had interpetted the rule rule wrong. Asked if I could show them or I was going to protest. He said I could show him the rule if I could find it quickly which I did.

 

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Same here Chris. I have never got them to do this during the game, but I have made it a point after the game. Some don't take it very well and you never seem to get a call the rest of the game, if you point out a mistake.

 

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I am confused here. I was under the impression that in Lions... situation that the ball was live and that the LBR was in force for all accept the Batter/runner once the ball was returned to the circle. Once the ball is returned and no play is made all other runners must commit and either return or advance. Can someone post the verbage from the rule book please. Thanks!

 

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One of the requirements of the Look Back Rule- besides the pitcher having the ball, being in the circle, not making a play, etc.- is that when the batter becomes a batter-runner (as on a walk) the LBR doesn't kick in until the batter-runner reaches first base. Up until that point, all runners are free to stand off their base, start, stop or dance around all they want.

This is covered in paragraph "A" of the rule posted above (which is the high school rule) and in the first sentence of the ASA rule.