Hitting and Hitters Discussion stuck on hitting

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Howard:

If you use the "pause" button on the YouTube player, you can get a rough version of slow-motion. Use it to freeze the frame to get a still shot, or click it on and off very rapidly to get a slow-motion effect. You can also click on the slide bar and drag it backwards to go back and see the swings again.

It's not exactly Right View Pro, but you can get some crude control of the video- rewinding, freeze frame and slow-motion- using the YouTube buttons.

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Mozzery:

I hope you aren't getting overloaded with advice here!

Sometimes we can get bogged down with too many details and overwhelmed with arcane definitions and terms. It seems like much of the advice you're getting is in agreement, though maybe expressed in slightly different terms. For instance, what Howard is calling "separation" and what I called "connection". While seemingly opposite terms, I suspect that we are both looking at the same thing- the rotational forces generated by the body's core (hips) and how those rotational forces are transfered up the kinetic chain- torso, shoulders, arms, hands and, ultimately, to the bat.

Which terms you use probably depends on which hitting guru you've most studied, be it Epstein, Candrea, Englishby or Slaught. We're looking at the same actions, but using slightly different terminology to describe what we see.

One way around this is to use video of the world's elite hitters and see for yourself what they are doing. You can see some good clips here: Hitting Clips

Watch them, study them and see for yourself what techniques are used by the world's best hitters. Compare them to what you see in your daughter's swing. Three points I would focus on are loading (back hip and shoulders/hands), hips firing slightly before hands begin moving forward to pull the upper body around (separation/connection) and the path of the bat in relation to the path of the pitch (matching the pitch plane).

Yes, there are other details besides those- weight transfer from back to front leg, front and back elbow positions, hand position at point of contact and various postural adjustments the hitter can make. But I really feel that those first three are the most basic elements of the rotational swing and form the building blocks for everything else. Start with those and you will be on the right path, then you can work the other stuff in as you progress.

The overall impression from watching your daughter's swing is that you have an athletic kid who has maybe received some bad training somewhere along the line. I see elements of linear mechanics, "squishing the bug " with the back foot and swinging down at the ball. But I also see a kid who is probably figuring some of this stuff out on her own. A true athlete will discover these things through trial and error, as she learns how her body works, moves and reacts. A little nudge in the right direction can reduce the trial and error, overcome some bad habits and help her get the most out of her ability.

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Thatguy:

I know you probably weren't talking about me, because I pretty much hit like crap last season! (Thatguy and I play on a men's fastpitch team together).

The brain might have a clue, but the 40-something body doesn't always cooperate...

I had to laugh about the "hitting up the middle" though. That is something I was working on last year and and some success with. Every hit I did have was a line drive in a wedge up the middle, between the shortstop and second baseman. But my best "up the middle" shot was the one where you were on second base and I almost took you head off!

Wish I could do that everytime- hit up the middle, that is, not almost kill one of my own teammates!

 

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And thanks for your comments, too, Howard!

As I went through all the swings in the clip, there were a couple where it looked like the rear elbow slotted and a couple where it didn't (I think maybe the ones where it didn't were the ones where the ball was hit foul to the left- a sign that the arms are extended too far, too soon, and the hitter "wraps the bat around the ball", whacking it foul).

I did see some front leg stiffening on some swings, it looked kind of bent on others (a sign of too much weight left on the back foot/poor weight transfer).

I totally missed the rear elbow geting ahead of the hands. That is one thing I always look for in a side-view clip and one of the most telling signs of the bat dragging too far behind in the swing. A sure killer of bat quickness- getting the bat from point "A" (launch) to point "B" (contact) in the shortest amount of time.

When the hands get ahead of the rear elbow, the bag tends to drag behind, then is suddenly whipped around late. Where some people get confused is that "bat speed" and "bat quickness" are two different things. This "drag and whip" can actually lead to a higer net bat speed- late in the swing. Kids can get away with it- and even be quite successful with it- in younger age groups with weaker pitching. The slower pitch speeds don't require as much late adjustment in the swing and the "drag/whip" can get enough bat speed to really cream the ball.

(Which ties in with my comments about the adjustments hitters must make around the 14U age level. What worked well for them at a younger age can be a swing killer at this age.)

As the pitching gets better, the hitter cannot afford this bat drag. Getting quickly from launch to contact becomes just as important- if not more so- than total bat speed. The analogy I always use is a dragster launching off the line in a drag race. One car can spin its wheels at the line (think of that as bat drag), then launch and hit a high top speed (bat speed). But the car that doesn't spin its wheels and launces quickly off the line will usually win the race- even if it ultimately reaches a lower maximum speed.

Hitting is a trade-off between bat quickness and bat speed. The "drag and whip" might increase total bat speed, but it does so at the sacrafice of bat quickness. Being quick allows the hitter to make late adjustments in the swing, letting the ball get deeper before committing to the pitch and reducing the chances of their being fooled by late ball movement.

One more bat quickness versus bat speed analogy: Top level men's slow pitch softball players have had bat speeds measured in the 110-120 mph range. Major League baseball players top out at around 90 mph. The reason? Slow pitch players need about zero adjustability in their swing and they can use mechanics that sacrafice quickness to higher bat speeds. The baseball players don't have that luxury. If they lose bat quickness, they will get fooled every time. So they must use different swing mechanics that result in lower bat speed, but allows them to quickly get to the ball without committing too soon.

Which is all a long way of saying that, yes, you make an excellent point about the hands getting ahead of the rear elbow!

 

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Howard -

Don and I talked in Dec. and I use to say hip slide to get the hitter to think more linear and now we are saying slow to load, soft to step with a flexed front knee at toe touch and on the inside edge of the lead foot so the hips move linear.

I'm not sure if you follow any of Steve Englishbey's teachings, but what I'm visualizing you are describing is what Englishbey calls "sitting to hit". At toe touch, the front side knee flexes slightly as the hips shift forward, and the butt kind of "sits". I think it's easier to see from the pitcher's perspective, or target view in RVP.

I'm always looking for another way to put into words what the hitter is doing, or supposed to be doing. I just wanted to be sure that is what you are describing.

P.S. - Have you been working with Mary Ellen's new group of girls this winter? I hope to catch a few of their games this coming summer.

 

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One more video of her. 1 pitch at-bat, hard-hit, out at 1st (better view from above to see the width of her stance and distance from the plate) same weekend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_izyHaRo3v4

 

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Wow...this is a virtual hitting clinic.
TONS of great advice and approaches.

When is the LIVE OFC clinic taking place?

Thanks

 

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Does anyone have any input as to how well the players who use the techniques listed here work? Are they able to put everything together and have good success? Hitter has a lot of great information listed but just curious how easily the players pick it up.

 

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Just an observation, weak front knee and not much of a load.

 

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Mozzery what part of the state do you live in? I read some advice you have been given etc, Looks like your DD has good hand-eye coord, as Bretman stated good pitch selection , now the easy part, I would get her to a good hitting coach, a Right View Pro coach. I think that style would really help her to drive the ball. I know of 3 very good hitting coaches in NWO, if you want their names just shoot me a PM.

 

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Thank you, Uber--we are in the northeast suburbs of Pittsburgh, not too close to NW Ohio. Thank you for the input. I'd like to get dd a little bit of time indoors to work on some of these suggestions.

 

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Moz,

Anywhere near McKeesport? I had to go there for business a few times.

On the second clip, I'll pretty much agree with what Rich posted a few posts back. The front knee has a lot of bend at contact, and that tells me she is not getting her weight off the backside with a good weight shift to the front. You can see a little tiny bit of load in the rear hip before swinging, but not very much. There seems to be maybe a tiny bit in the shoulders, too, but again not much.

Very hard to impossible to see what's going on with the arms/elbows/hands from this back view.

I noticed that on her follow through the bat finished high on this swing. Could be a function of getting a higher pitch to hit (this one looks to be near the top of the zone) which forces a hitter to level out the bat and prevents a downward swing.

My impression is still that she is not getting the full benefit of using the body's large core muscles to generate the most possible bat speed, quickness and power.

But she looks to be on her way! Keep up the good work and let us now how she progresses!

 

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Thank you, Uber--we are in the northeast suburbs of Pittsburgh, not too close to NW Ohio. Thank you for the input. I'd like to get dd a little bit of time indoors to work on some of these suggestions.

mozzery, I'm in the northern suburbs of Pittsburgh. I'm willing to work with your DD. Send me a pm if you want to.

Jeff Becker
Pittsburgh Power

 

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Thank you, bretman, we're about a half hour northwest of McKeesport

 

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Howard also works with Coach B at Wright State. Many traveling ball coaches have been to his clinics and Yes what he teaches works. If you have been to one of his clinics and follow college softball , you can always spot one of girls at bat. He is a great teacher!

 

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One more video of her. 1 pitch at-bat, hard-hit, out at 1st (better view from above to see the width of her stance and distance from the plate) same weekend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_izyHaRo3v4

This is a slightly better angle and I think that Howard nailed it. You can clearly see that her bat has a downward swing, which doesn't match the plane of the pitch. Right now she is probably hitting a lot of hard grounders, moderately hard line shots, and weaker popups. This is pure speculation on my part. I'm guessing this because the plane of the bat dictates that the momentum of the bat will drive the ball down when she hits it solidly. For her to hit a liner or fly ball she will have to hit more of the bottom half of the ball and the full momentum of the bat will be going in the opposite direction of the ball, if that makes sense.

Everything Howard said is good advise for her. Not that I could refute his advise anyway.

Hopefully, what I've added to the conversation helps.

 

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lol ;D her bat has a downward swing because her front knee is bent. Talk about over analyzing something.

 

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Rich...if you understood the swing you would understand why it happened as to the flexed knee at contact.

This is why we share information, to help each other.

I think there are others who could help you so I will set this one out and let them help you.

 

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Howard - Yes, that makes sense. Sorry for the delay...

Moz - Learning good hitting is like dieting. You can "kind of" work at it by taking a little bit of advice here and there. But to really be effective, you have to make it an everyday routine.

My DD is a pitcher, and she went through a similar situation with her hitting as yours is now. As she got older, especially at about 14u, her hitting started stinking - REAL bad. Her pitching was fine - she had worked endless hours at that, but not her hitting. At the time, I knew absolutely zilch about hitting. All I knew was "squish the bug", "keep your hands inside the ball", and all the other useless jargon that helps no one.

But we took a serious turn. I did some thorough research and found someone to help her. That person happened to be a very good college hitter who helped her do a 180. It took a LOT of hard work over the biggest part of a year. She turned into a very good power hitter, hitting a walk off home run last year as a freshman in college.

I dove in also. I purchased a software program called RightView Pro to use on my laptop computer to do video analysis. I also ordered Steve Englishbey's DVD set about swing mechanics. I also studied other "hitting gurus" approaches to hitting. One thing I found is they are using different words and phrases, and slightly different methods - but they ALL are working towards a "Major League Swing".

I could toss out some suggestions like "she needs a more aggressive stance, more tilt, needs to maintain connection, better extension while avoiding wrist roll, etc." What your DD really needs is to start from scratch and learn the principles of good rotational hitting. You can't use a band-aid approach, because it all works together. You can get AMAZING results over a period of 6 months working at it 2 - 3 times a week - more if possible, but keep it interesting AND show her the results on video of her progress.

Hitter (Howard) is probably the most qualified instructor that regularly posts on OFC, and I highly recommend him. My DD played at the 16u level with one of his students (also now a DI player). Let me tell you that she can flat out crush the ball.

You can do it yourself, but at this stage I would recommend using a good instructor who knows how to teach solid rotational hitting. Then, get busy immersing yourself in the REAL mechanics of hitting. It's a long involved process where you NEVER stop learning.

 

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I could toss out some suggestions like "she needs a more aggressive stance, more tilt, needs to maintain connection, better extension while avoiding wrist roll, etc." What your DD really needs is to start from scratch and learn the principles of good rotational hitting. You can't use a band-aid approach, because it all works together. You can get AMAZING results over a period of 6 months working at it 2 - 3 times a week - more if possible, but keep it interesting AND show her the results on video of her progress.

I agree with Sammy, there is a lot of work that needs done, and it won't be quick or easy. ?Anything we say is going to be confusing, especially if it's presented to you in pieces, and your trying to put it all together, without an understanding of what needs to occur. ?If you can't get to a good hitting instructor, learn as much as you can about the swing, and continue to ask questions. ?Another good thing is to look at MLB or NPF players and their swings, slow them down and study them, and then try to emulate what you see.

I too am struggling with changing my DD's swing over to "a Linear Weight Shift, Into Rotational Mechanics" from a, "no step, fire the hip as quick as possible, take your hands to the ball, squish the bug, rotational swing." ?It's not a bad swing, meaning it's better than a linear swing, but it's not the swing thats going to get her to the next level, or the one that is going to give her the results she is looking for.

It's a long journey, but your not alone. ?I to, am on the path to finding the "Holy Grail" of hitting, and Howard has helped in giving me a glimpse of the light at the end of the tunnel.

Lets keep this one alive and on topic, and alot of good can come from it!!!

 

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Thanks again everyone. With funds being limited right now, I have spent many months looking at the siggy site, reading up on Epstein, Ted Williams, spoke with Mr. Englishbey, and I can see many of the issues that have been pointed out here. With travel ball practice wrapping up and high school practice getting into full swing (pun intende ;D), I'd really like to have dd start making these adjustments, and get her confidence up. Like the idea of a hitting instructor, but funds right now are very limited, which is why I went online with the videos. I do have a photo of her from last year's Pony Nationals where a photographer shot what I believe is a very good swing from her. Wish I could post it.

 

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Mozzery - There are two primary tools that can really accelerate her learning to become a better hitter. Those tools are 1.) A method of teaching her sound rotational swing mechanics, and 2.) A fairly basic home video camera to analyze what she is actually doing.

It looks like you already have the video camera. You need the ability to step forward frame by frame to really see what she is doing. Most cameras can do that. Then, if you can scratch together $120, I would strongly urge buying the Englishbey DVD set on swing training. I'm not saying his methods are the best for everyone, but the information he presents is very sound. That purchase also gets you onto his private forum where there is an extended wealth of hitting knowledge to keep you busy for awhile.

Those two are the only "big ticket" items you'll need. You'll find that most of the rest of the tools you need are VERY inexpensive - broomstick or wooden dowel, toy ball, a chair, Tee, etc. I even used a nylon dog leash for his strap drill to aid connection! As you work with your DD, you'll find she probably needs more work on certain things, less on others. As you go along, you can customize your efforts and improvise using ordinary items found around the house - a wadded up towel, a toy ball, etc. ?

You're getting a good grasp of what she needs to improve on, you just need a good program to show you how to go about it, such as drills and things to practice. Englishbey's system provided that for us in spades, but we didn't stop there. We eventually added tidbits from others such as Epstein and Paul Nyman. But it took a solid foundation first, and the Englishbey stuff provided that.

It sounds like you're standing up on the platform, all you need to do is DIVE IN!

P.S. - IMO, it's nearly impossible to effectively correct a swing flaw during the season. You're changing things dramatically, and not seeing immediate results can be frustrating and counter productive. The ideal time to work on this stuff is in the off season - which for us started somewhere around late October and ended on February 25th. I'm not a big believer in "fall ball", simply because I think my kids needed a mental break. Our break was most of August, September and part of October. That worked for us, but you have to do what's best for yours. That's a whole topic in itself.