Hitting and Hitters Discussion stuck on hitting

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hitter... are you serious ? we are talking about a soft front knee. Did you really need to say 'Rich...if you understood the swing you would understand why it happened as to the flexed knee at contact'. I am not a hitting guru like yourself but I thought my observation was solid. I doubt that everyone on this board has the knowledge you do. You obviously are an expert and I respect that, try to remember Howard that some of us are not at your level, Sharing knowledge is great but the translation of that knowledge is difficult for some of us.

 

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lol ;D her bat has a downward swing because her front knee is bent. Talk about over analyzing something.

I was pointing out, "Talk about over analyzing something."

Rich by pointing out that the knee was indeed bent, flexed at contact was an observation that most people would view as simple observations and information to understanding what was going wrong during the swing.

You viewed it as "over analyzing something" and I was trying to keep it simple. There are many who would introduce the biomechanics of the elements in the swing to the degree you need a PHD in science and or engineering to understand what it was they were even talking about and the player you are working with gets lost in the translation of who can use the most scientific terms in their explanations or to sell their product.

I took your statement as "over analyzing something" as you already knew why it was bent or flexed and you knew how to correct it so I wanted to learn more myself and how it could be interpeted as "over analyzing" by you.

When typing something your expressions using your fingers to express something can be misunderstood...if that is the case I am sorry.

Howard

 

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Howard, keep those tips coming. I think it is great that a person with your knowledge on hitting is willing to share with the rest of us. I have learned so much from your posts and have been implementing them into our hitting practice, I have to say that as a team we now look better than we ever have. It is still a work in progress, but, I finally think we are now on the right track. Just wanted to personally thank you for your insight and love of the game.


Dave Saturday
Ohio Top Guns 12u

 

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I frequent many forum boards, and many of them have great topics on hitting, with some pretty knowledgeable people. ?The problem with hitting, as previously stated, there are many different ways of saying the same things, and all people will analyze the same swing differently. ?These great topics start to go a stray when people start taking offense to differences of opinion. ?

We are all trying to learn here, and I don't think anyone that I know in this thread is trying to belittle anyones comments. ?As Howard previously stated, "When typing something, your expressions using your fingers to express something can be misunderstood," should always be remembered, and we will not always agree, but should be learning.

Now back to hitting!!!

 

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The reason I like video, and especially RightView Pro, is that you can SHOW a kid what they are supposed to be doing - from many angles of view, in slow motion, frame by frame, or whatever. Using "catch phrases" and trying to explain something as complex as a swing with words can be VERY confusing, or at least it is to me. Today's technology is FAR cheaper than it was just 10 years ago. "A picture tells a thousand words" is now my favorite catch phrase.

I just put A-Rod or Manny (a pro) on the left side of the screen, and the student on the right. I step their swings through, stopping at key swing points. Then I just let them do a "self analysis" - I have them tell me what they see, how they compare and what they think needs to change. All I need to do is give them hints at methods to fix it. Every kid is different, so they use quite different cues to arrive at the same point. I try to avoid using terms like "keep your head on the ball" (wouldn't that hurt anyway?), "hands inside the ball" (too vague), etc. I guess I'm just a fan of "visual learning" - or "show me, don't tell me".

 

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We like to say put things in measurable and observable terms that reasonable people could agree upon and then how could we test for it to see if it is working or that you could feel the difference.

For example hands inside the ball. We do say that however?.We use a ball on a rope attached to a bat handle and I have the student hold the ball with both hands and I assume the hitting position, after I get to toe touch, I point out as I lower my back elbow starting to connection that the elbow must clear my body and not go into the ribs, hip and clear our body. The top hand and elbow are stacked over each other or what we term staying strong on the back side and the elbow lines up with the stripe or seam of the pants and the bat begins to transition forward and the lead arm elbow is pulling forward towards bat lag however it is not quite there yet.

In my opinion this is where you see the swing break down if they are making a bad first move or the hands are going over the plate or towards the ball. We explain as a right hander we do not want to flip the bat towards the first baseman?s position or another term is hitting around the ball. I demonstrate this by flipping the bat handle over the plate or taking out the slack as I am going sideways and not directing the force forward or inside the path of the ball.

We put a lot of emphasis at this point by showing them the hands are actually moving inside the path of the ball and somewhat linear for a few inches as we go to bat lag and how the lead elbow is moving forward or making a good first move about 2 to 3 inches and the lead elbow is angling up as it moves forward.

For me this is a semi circular hand path and not totally rotational AND PLEASE DO NOT GET STARTED ON ROTATIONAL VERSUS LINEAR. Now as the shoulders are starting to open as rotation is beginning and now the hitter has to determine depth inbox or how far back the ball is over the plate as to when to release the wrist to hit the ball and the swing becomes more circular. We say elbow, hand and then release the bat head with the wrist with our hands above the plane of the pitch.

As the student is still holding onto the ball on a rope as I get to connection i.e. hands passing in front of the rear shoulder, we point out if the hands are ahead of the rear elbow, we are probably hitting line drives or ground balls because we are most likely pushing the bat because we did not slot the elbow and if the elbow gets ahead of the hands it pulls or impinges the rear shoulder down (get to the connection position and force your elbow forward and you will see it and feel it) and forces the front shoulder up or what some people describe as dropping the back shoulder which in my opinion does actually happen however that is what they think they saw. Now as we go to bat lag we stress we are pulling the bat through, towards contact and our hands were inside the path of the ball and I drag the student holding the ball forward and then release the wrist to contact and pull them forward. Please note Shayne was a little harder to pull forward and Scott Herman was even harder however we did move them! Not totally sure I could do this with Hitter23 however!

You can see the elbows working together and how the hands are above the plane of the pitch?then the student does this so they can feel it. When they start hitting again when I say hands inside the ball or a good first move or pulling the bat through they make the necessary corrections. Since we have our net marked with upper and lower control limits as to hitting zones with a center line we can determine if they are hitting around the ball or are hitting the top, middle or bottom of the ball.

Keeping their head on the ball was demonstrated by showing them they are stronger with their head slightly down or as we say you know you are stronger with your head down, so track it and drive it. When the head pulls out as some describe it we know the front side or shoulder opened pulling the head out?.I have never seen a player just turn their head to one side without the shoulder going first however I have not seen Sammy hit?just kidding.

Hope this helps in some way and that it is not too technical to follow.

Howard

 

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Howard ?- you really don't want to see me hit either - my own swing mechanics are hopelessly beyond repair!!

;D

But IF I was in the market to have someone TRY to teach me, I'd be banging on your door...

One thing I did learn recently is the principle of "separation" between the turning of the shoulders and hips. I was told that in both hitting and throwing - especially baseball pitching, the hips are supposed to fire a split second before the shoulder turn. Maybe you can explain this, Howard. I think it's been called "unwinding the rubber band".

 

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Chris , I think Howard just got you. ?I'm sure he will get me next week, since I'm old and out of shape. ?
?;D ;D

 

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What has a greater effect on Batspeed? The Conservation of Angular Momentum or the Conservation of Linear Momentum?

 

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Is that Nyman-ese or Mankin-ese? I'm guessing Mankin, because I seem to remember that he has the batspeed website. He had a line of gizmos and gadgets you could buy from him to measure bat speed. Some video footage, too on his website.
www.batspeed.com

 

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What has a greater effect on Batspeed? ?The Conservation of Angular Momentum or the Conservation of Linear Momentum?

Not sure who uses it, just trying to spark some conversation.

 

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Angular - It's the same forces used by an ice skater for spins, the thrill in "crack the whip" in roller skating, and it accelerates your bat in well executed rotational mechanics.

 

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Google baseball fever 101 and go to the thread dealing with Angular Momentum VS Linear Momentum.

After you read it consider for yourself how we get wrapped up around the axle with science, physics and engineering to the degree we forget about the players being taught HOW to swing versus the scientific nature of the swing and the mechanics and promoting our individual beliefs. Look at the systems of the people promoting their products and how they all try to use science to do it.

For the student of the game it may be fun to learn and interesting to research all the nuances of how the body parts interact with each other to hit a ball.

There are also products and DVD?s being sold as to which swing, how to swing, who uses the particular swing, testimonials of the best way to swing, why our swing works better than your swing, the model swing and who knows what else as to the mechanics of the swing to promote their product or views.

Like everyone else that has an opinion so do I and we call it a linear weight shift using a semi circular hand path by using a negative move or load and going to toe touch or positive by thinking slow to load, soft to step on a flexed front knee while separating the hands rearward and the back leg knee is moving further under us as the hips are moving linear and when we think we can hit the ball we begin connection by lowering the back elbow or slotting while the hands are passing in front of our back shoulder and pull and lead with the lead arm elbow leading and going up at a slight angle while directing the hands towards the inside path of the ball and starting to plant the heel to create a foundation by which to rotate around and continue into bat lag and as we approach to make contact with the ball while keeping our head slightly down to remain stronger in the impact area while the front side is opening and becoming more rotational because we started connection. The front leg locks out or stiffens as we make contact and can be seen as having an angle against the front leg and the head is remaining steady and often at times you may see the back foot toe pointed to the ground and the heel up and the foot off the ground and moving forward. As we continue to contact we drive the ball and do not roll the wrist until after extension and then follow through over our shoulder.

Sammy, Shayne I may have missed a few areas however I think we covered most and both of you know because we go to some of the same sites?however the point I feel we often over look is HOW to teach what we think we saw or read in a way the player can understand and feel it and then how to track the process in a way to keep improving our players using data like on base percentage, slugging average, strike out looking versus strike out swinging and walks and looking at the TEAM batting average for starters. Of course if we talk about any of our kid?s success it is then bragging as we have no product to sell and you know what we mean.

We should not become so scientific or wrapped up into physics and engineering that we forget HOW to teach how to hit and for them to have fun while doing it.

Please do not read into this anymore than it is intended and that is too keep it simple when trying to explain it in measurable and observable terms and then how to test it to see if the athlete can feel it.

Hope this helps?Howard

 

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Both of my kids are at the age where the scientific details are the LAST thing they want to know. They just want to hit!! I think most younger kids are that way, and that's where the folks who cal it "overanalyzing" jump in. But - SOMEONE has to figure this stuff out, because "See the ball - hit the ball" just doesn't work for many kids.

An adult is usually more in the mindset to absorb all the minute details; all the "boring" stuff that kids just aren't interested in. The real success stories are the kids who have been taught this stuff in a creative way. Just like in formal education, there is something to be said for, not only a knowledgeable teacher, but one who is very skilled at imparting that knowledge to the students. A skilled teacher also must change their methods slightly for each student. Some kids are visual learners (most, I think) and some can just listen to your words, IF they make sense to the student. All this while teaching the same fundamental material.

I think the successful formula is as Howard describes. He's taken a complicated physical movement and distilled it down into common phrases which should be understood by most kids.

 

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"See the ball - hit the ball"

At some point that is exactly what they need to do, Hitting coaches correct mechanics, Players practice to produce muscle memory and during a game "see the ball- Hit the ball" is what they need to be thinking about lol...of course this is just IMO ?;D

 

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Sammy that was the main point...making sure ALL the kids get it not just the gifted ones and at a level they can relate to.

I can assure you most of our kids understand the mechanics of the swing more than some of the coaches they play for and that is not a joke. Ask coach Larabee as he knows some of our kids as to the hitters knowledge of the swing mechanics.

We being Crystl and I have tried to break it down so the information used at the clinics can be used not only that day but each and everyday after they leave.

We changed the format 2 and half years ago and got a lot of feedback that it worked better showing them how to throw first and how momentum for hitting and throwing are similair although not the same we can relate to it as we build the swing mechanics.

Howard

 

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To be able to teach hitting, there has to be some degree of Physics/Science knowledge, and/or understanding. ?To what extent, is where the problem lies.

Like everyone else that has an opinion so do I and we call it a linear weight shift using a semi circular hand path by using a negative move or load and going to toe touch or positive by thinking slow to load, soft to step on a flexed front knee while separating the hands rearward and the back leg knee is moving further under us as the hips are moving linear and when we think we can hit the ball we begin connection by lowering the back elbow or slotting while the hands are passing in front of our back shoulder and pull and lead with the lead arm elbow leading and going up at a slight angle while directing the hands towards the inside path of the ball and starting to plant the heel to create a foundation by which to rotate around and continue into bat lag and as we approach to make contact with the ball while keeping our head slightly down to remain stronger in the impact area while the front side is opening and becoming more rotational because we started connection. The front leg locks out or stiffens as we make contact and can be seen as having an angle against the front leg and the head is remaining steady and often at times you may see the back foot toe pointed to the ground and the heel up and the foot off the ground and moving forward. As we continue to contact we drive the ball and do not roll the wrist until after extension and then follow through over our shoulder.

In the above paragraph from Howard, I see at least nine words that are used in Physics/Mathematics/Science, and he is taking these words to now describe what is happening during the mechanics of the swing. ?If you don't have a basic knowledge/understanding of these words, using them in describing hitting could be confusing.

Howard does an excellent job of mixing all these elements together, in a teaching method that is easily understood by most anyone. ?Many others go over the top in this department, and make it virtually impossible to understand or teach.

Not sure how in depth some people are into the Hows?/Whys? of swing mechanics. ?I have been doing alot of studying on the mechanics of the swing, so that I may have a better understanding. ?So anything I bring up is just a topic of discussion and nothing more. ?A chance to add a little more substance to the board, besides which team is better, or who stole what, etc....

Shayne

 

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No pitchers and catchers again today, so lets fire up the hitting thread again...

What do you feel is the most important part of the swing? or the firing mechanism that gets the whole process started? ?What is one thing that cannot be left out, for the hitting process to even occur? Touch on one or all...

 

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What do you feel is the most important part of the swing? or the firing mechanism that gets the whole process started? What is one thing that cannot be left out, for the hitting process to even occur? Touch on one or all...

I'll bite...

I think that regardless of the type of swing that you have that the timing of the swing has to be the most important. Without the correct timing the best swing in the world won't hit the ball.

 

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The one thing for my DD that is the most important part of the swing is....Howard. Shayne your right about the way he teaches. Not everyone can do what he does and to say we are lucky to have him in our area is an understatment. I still can't figure out how the girls can call him and tell him on the phone without him ever seeing them at bat where the ball went and he can tell them exactly what they did wrong and how to correct it. He has made such a huge impact on our DD. I know when Crystl first asked him to work with our DD I was impressed from the first 20 minutes he worked with her. And he has helped her with a lot more than just hitting too. He even had our grand daughter who was 4 at the time hitting when he did soft toss. Of course now she tells everyone she is Howards girl and thinks she has to go to her "hittin coach" every time we leave the house. Can't imagine DD being as successful without his input. There is a lot of work that has to go into it too, but Howard is the foundation that her work is built on and it's nice that she has someone who cares enough to help her build that success. Now just have to figure out what to do when she goes to college!