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That's funny!!
That's funny!!
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Thanks for the post Hilliarddad. I totally agree. It is all in the pitching if there is any difference at all. These guys act like players out west wear a cape on the ballfield.
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Some people just don`t understand how good these west coast kids are. Sheer numbers is part of it, but better training at earlier ages, playing against better competition, and being able to play outside year round does make a difference. It doesnt hurt that out west, softball attracts some of their best athletes.
Thanks SBFAMILY, I rest my case.
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Sorry but you are wrong. They are generally better at all phases of the game. They definately have better pitching, but that also means they have better hitters. Defensively they are somewhat better.
Now after a year or two of college ball, and the training the Ohio kids get, they seem to catch up some. But as freshmen the west coast kids are definately better prepared for college ball.
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Then I guess I am just watching the only games these teams make errors, nobody covering first on a bunt, shortstops with multiple errors, outfielders like deer in headlights when a ball hit to them, Outfielder throws not even close to the plate, catchers throwing to the center field fence...... I could go on...But I guess they just weren't West Coast girls making those errors, must have been the kids from all the other states....
Again once the pitchers aren't dominating and the balls start flying, it's fair game and anything happens out there.
Again once the pitchers aren't dominating and the balls start flying, it's fair game and anything happens out there.
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Seen all that at the College World Series and they were west coast girls.
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I can state at the younger ages, and with Az Hotshots 94 winning the 14U ASA Western Nationals (have not seen them play yet) and seeing teams play for the past 6 months, I disagree with you punchout. I havent seen anything in the 14U here in Arizona that compares to the Slammers, Laser's Red, and a few others that we faced this past summer that finished in the top 10 Poll. Not only could the top 10 teams in Ohio last year hit, but they all had at least one pitcher and some teams 2 pitchers that are hands down better than anything I've seen in 7 tournaments from kids with 96 and 95 birth years. The biggest difference I see between Ohio and out West; Velocity in Ohio versus Ball Movement and location out West, and all girls in the entire U.S. can hit fastballs! The Rotation of the pitchers during a game and during the tournament is another difference. So in my opinion the only difference is pithcing, the faster it comes in the further it goes out! We had a pitcher last year that in a lot of games was untouchable, but when the off speed didn't work, the other teams bats did! You can blow it by kids for an inning or two, but without movement and good off speed it's just another fastball and as the girls use too say, "Sittin Dead Red, MIDDLE-MIDDLE" throw it again please. LOL:lmao:
I have spoke to some coach's and they send scouts during pool play games, so they have the strategy for Sunday, if Ohio isn't doing it, may be something to consider at the younger ages, I know the older ones do it in every state, or at least the top teams do.
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I have to agree with Rog on this one. I have somewhat limited knowledge . Been to 1 ASA nat at 12u 2 years ago and an Eastern regional. Watched tons of games when i was there. The pitching was no different , there were some dang good ones but scoring runs was no problem for us. As I've said before D and team speed were the 2 biggies. Played 2 Ca teams and one of them had a lightning fast OF where anything but solid shot was tracked down.
And Yes they change pitchers more often than the rest of change position players. thats thy way they rool I guess
And Yes they change pitchers more often than the rest of change position players. thats thy way they rool I guess
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Laser Red played Arizona HotShots at Findlay last spring, right as OH Highschool was finishing up, and AZ had been playing competetive travel for three months already.
There is something called Swagger, that AZ, Cali, TX, and FL teams bring onto the field simply from playing 12 months a year. Laser Red played AZ solid all three games that weekend and showed they were the better team, NO DOUBT. However, due to OH weather and culture our girls were not READY to compete at that level. TOO BAD, they didn't get to meet at Nationals as I WOULD BET ANYTHING Laser Red would have beat them in Georgia.
Regardless, there is something to be said about the confidence and expectation to WIN that the SoCal, AZ, TX, FL girls bring to the field that we NEED to develop and harvest. No doubt we had better players.
There is something called Swagger, that AZ, Cali, TX, and FL teams bring onto the field simply from playing 12 months a year. Laser Red played AZ solid all three games that weekend and showed they were the better team, NO DOUBT. However, due to OH weather and culture our girls were not READY to compete at that level. TOO BAD, they didn't get to meet at Nationals as I WOULD BET ANYTHING Laser Red would have beat them in Georgia.
Regardless, there is something to be said about the confidence and expectation to WIN that the SoCal, AZ, TX, FL girls bring to the field that we NEED to develop and harvest. No doubt we had better players.
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back to another idea that has been posted on here...say you have Lilly McStud living softball 24/7. She's on a "high-level" team, but say you live out in Egypt, Ohio. You're a trucker and your wife is a stay-at-home wife. One income family. How are they supposed to get their DD across the state-lines to Colorado one weekend and georgia the next? Money has to be a factor to where your DD ends up as well.
Of course there are committed parents who have the means (and uncommitted parents who have the means and don't do anything with it, softball or anything).
I think of our high school band parents, not only do they have school fees, but they took trips to the Rose Bowl and the Macy's Parade. I was thankful that DD got out of band years ago, man with travel (that I can barely pay, my coach surely knows that) expenses and such, there's no way I'd be able to pay it, not without going into more debt.
And of course, people sometimes have better money managment, they have less credit and have more disposable cash to be able to make trips in the summer. They cut down on things (sleeping in dive motels, not eating out as much, etc). I think alot of us do that. Generally, I think the girls in Ohio who play on really competitive teams have the means to travel through the "small-town" Ohio tour and an occasional out-of-state tourney.
My uncle's 3 boys all played competitive travel baseball. They really go the mile, Ariz, Jersey, Florida..My uncle God bless has been able to afford that, now 2 of the boys are playing Jr. College, the younger one is still playing high school ball. I don't think even if my DD were good enough (whose to say, surely not my biasness, and surely not from my critique cause she's willing to go through a brick wall for her current coach, why not another?), would I have been able to travel/fly to other states..no way. So even with goals in mind, parents have to be realistic about their choices. And then again, maybe the trucker living in Egypt, OH could care less about DD playing at UCLA. God Bless him for raising her in this world. Softball is but a tool and a means to an end. Keep it in perspective.
Of course there are committed parents who have the means (and uncommitted parents who have the means and don't do anything with it, softball or anything).
I think of our high school band parents, not only do they have school fees, but they took trips to the Rose Bowl and the Macy's Parade. I was thankful that DD got out of band years ago, man with travel (that I can barely pay, my coach surely knows that) expenses and such, there's no way I'd be able to pay it, not without going into more debt.
And of course, people sometimes have better money managment, they have less credit and have more disposable cash to be able to make trips in the summer. They cut down on things (sleeping in dive motels, not eating out as much, etc). I think alot of us do that. Generally, I think the girls in Ohio who play on really competitive teams have the means to travel through the "small-town" Ohio tour and an occasional out-of-state tourney.
My uncle's 3 boys all played competitive travel baseball. They really go the mile, Ariz, Jersey, Florida..My uncle God bless has been able to afford that, now 2 of the boys are playing Jr. College, the younger one is still playing high school ball. I don't think even if my DD were good enough (whose to say, surely not my biasness, and surely not from my critique cause she's willing to go through a brick wall for her current coach, why not another?), would I have been able to travel/fly to other states..no way. So even with goals in mind, parents have to be realistic about their choices. And then again, maybe the trucker living in Egypt, OH could care less about DD playing at UCLA. God Bless him for raising her in this world. Softball is but a tool and a means to an end. Keep it in perspective.
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All I have to says is what I said before. When you start to combine the best west coast kids, you get teams like UCLA, Arizona Stanford Cal etc.
UCLA has 11 CWS championships
Arizona 7 championships
Fresno St. Cal, Cal St Fullerton all have 0ne championship
Texas A&M has 3 from the eighties
Oklahoma has one and Washington has one
Michigan has one.
Arizona St. has one.
Of @ 28 championships, one has been east of the Mississippi by the best team in the Big Ten(UM) most years.
If you think our pitching is as good as theirs you have not been paying attention. Lisa Fernandez, Seldon, Finch,Abbott, Hollowell,Granger, Osterman(Texas), the list goes on and is impressive.
Sure we may have a few teams who can beat some west coast teams, but their best teams , generally speaking, are better than our teams. History of National championships at EVERY level proves my point.
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Amen
(from a team perspective)
As a coach you also have to know what your parents can and are willing to do as far as travel.
Even A team that is talented enough to travel may not go out of town as much as they should.
Do to the fact that is just not what the parents want.
And if mommy is not happy then no body is happy, and soon you wont have a team
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Nice post!
Certainly softball has become one of those sports where it does take money to become successful. We do not see many inner city players playing ASA "A" or gold now do we? It can be very expensive and not everyone can afford to have a kid who is a star player. Same can be said for hockey, so##er and baseball.
Look, I will be the first one here to admit there is nothing wrong with playing on Ohio`s best teams and playing a more Ohio based tournament schedule. My kid did that and ended up playing at OSU. There is certainly nothing wrong with playing college ball right here in Ohio in the MAC or the Horizon leagues (for division 1). To think suddenly if our players start playing a lot of gold tournaments we are going to see an influx of coaches from UCLA, and Arizona etc recruiting Ohio heavily we might be pretty disappointed. I am sure we will have a few who "could" play on teams like that, but even then to get recruited is going to be an uphill battle for most.
Like this last poster said, playing softball ,on scholarship, is a means to an end.
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Very true Punchout. But the East coast is catching up nicely and the "aura" of not being able to win the NCAA's if you are East of the missisip is fading away. The SEC is coming on and is right there with the PAC 10. Tennessee easily had the talent to beat zona in 07 or was it 06 ? . Bama , Florida and Georgia were top 5-6 last year. Mich won it 07 or 08 . So the times they are a changin'. The facts are correct , West coast has been dominate , but not for much longer . Washington was led by a Canadian ! Tincher was an east coast kid. Easily the top pitcher in 09. MD
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I will agree with you on that one punchout, pitching was dominated by the west coast for years, but we are talking today and not the past 20 years. As having a kid come up through Ohio travel ball from 10U to 14U and playing against teams such as Lasers Red, Slammers, Doom 95, Ohio Ice, and I believe most of the top 10 teams voted in Ohio this past summer. I can state for a fact I've only seen a velocity comparison from a team out of Alabama that flew to Az for a ASA tournament a couple of weeks ago. Otherwise, pitching speed average in Az at 14U is about 50 to 52 mph and I may have seen one kid around 55. My point to all this is, pitching in Ohio versus Arizona at 14U, Ohio is leading in my opininion. Now as far as strategy to the game, who ever pitches better on Saturday, starts on Sunday and will be rotated every 2 to 3 innings and they live on location and off speed out here. To reference Manitou in regards to defense, he is giving the proper assessment in my opinion. During practices out here they drill and drill defense and throwing behind the runners on base as well as throwing out the runner stealing 2nd with a runner on 3rd. They work the catchers hard to be accurate and quick, you dont see as many kids going to 2nd on a base on balls with a runner at 3rd out here.
Overall, from the eyes of a parent in the younger divisions and going forward may change, but I feel Ohio and Az are not very different and I feel Ohio may be ahead in the 14U division by a slim margin thanks to pitching. JMO
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It is a bunch b u l l c r a p about needing money to be successfull at fastpitch. It is the colleges dont look in all the right places. There are a gosh darn lot of young ladies all over this state that can play ball just all well as the others. They may have more teams that are hard to beat. Just remember they also have teams that dont measure up just like we do. Alot more people live out there in wonderful old California.
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Mani, I totally agree with you. It will be the south who tests the west coast dominance first.
UM won it all in `05
Also remember this. Many of the non south teams still have several key players who grew up out west. UM is coming close to getting there again. Ohio st depened mainly on Kim Reeder who was from a hot bed of pitching talent near San Fran. Before Reeder it was Juarez, another west coast kid.It is tottaly understanable why the south is coming on. The sport is really popular there along with better weather.
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Bull ****? I bet when my kid played for the lasers I spent easily 3 thousand dollars per summer. I also spent 50 bucks a week on pitching lessons for 10 years. Sorry but that is out of reach for most families. If you think there great players hiding all over this state who are not known by coaches you are delousional.Most all the kids who get money to play in college follow about the same formula. And NOT playing on name brand teams who do at least some form of travel,which requires a fair amount of money for hotels, food entertainment,gas etc.is not that formula.
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The economics are VERY real. There are a lot of families re-thinking commitments due to the times, the economy, and a re-evaluation of whether it is all worth it. I have always felt that you just set your goals and then just make them happen. But in these times, it isn't about pinching a little, or making choices, it is about surviving for some. We will have a nasty travel schedule this year, and there are a lot of discussions about ... "how are we going to work this??" .....
We have already lost a very talented player to economics, who is a soph now, who was getting early looks from D1 schools .... going in a different direction, that is less expensive now, and more career oriented long term .... a very practical decision, and one that I hated (but respected).
When you are playing for the Lasers and a few other Org's, you know that is part of the deal, everyone is there for the same reason, (to bicker ... just kidding
) .... other teams that develop into more competitive & heavy travel settings have adjustments to make, collectively and individually, and unfortunately sometimes it means saying "good bye" to some friends and great people along the way. Hey, here is my exit, later .... not all going to the same places, nor possessing the same resources. It is a value proposition that we all analyze and make our own judgments about though.
Some of us just enjoy the company and the trip so much, that we will just wait and see where we end up, and figure out later whether it was really worth it or not ... what will be will be, dust to dust .... important to have fun along the way!!
We have already lost a very talented player to economics, who is a soph now, who was getting early looks from D1 schools .... going in a different direction, that is less expensive now, and more career oriented long term .... a very practical decision, and one that I hated (but respected).
When you are playing for the Lasers and a few other Org's, you know that is part of the deal, everyone is there for the same reason, (to bicker ... just kidding
) .... other teams that develop into more competitive & heavy travel settings have adjustments to make, collectively and individually, and unfortunately sometimes it means saying "good bye" to some friends and great people along the way. Hey, here is my exit, later .... not all going to the same places, nor possessing the same resources. It is a value proposition that we all analyze and make our own judgments about though.Some of us just enjoy the company and the trip so much, that we will just wait and see where we end up, and figure out later whether it was really worth it or not ... what will be will be, dust to dust .... important to have fun along the way!!
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Ohio has always had very good pitching at the 12u-16u ages. We have several dominate pitchers who played in the summer.
Chain, Leary, Baker, Maynard, PrunerSimpson etc. The list goes on. But only Chain in the last 10 years could have pitched on a top level team (she beat several top 10 teams in her career.
Location and movement wins games at the younger levels. Speed can also be a factor, as always.
My observations of Ohio pitching is this; There are definately more "better" pitchers than ever 5 years ago, but I do not see any higher numbers of "very good" pitchers than ohio has had in the last 10 years.
There is a good crop who just left high school. They are very good pitchers. Are they great pitchers like Osterman, Fernandez Hollowell,Finch? Not in my opinion, time will tell. I hope Ohio does have some super stars coming up. and evetually we will have at least one. I think what we see at younger ages is some girls who have matured early, and dominate, but for some reason they dont get to that next level.
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