What's the call??

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Had this happen this past summer;

There is a runner on 3rd that was originally called out at 1st but on an appeal awarded 1st. On a sac bunt runner goes from 1st to 3rd, runner called out at 1st. Next batter strikes out and home plate calls out "that's the 3rd outs ladies", catcher believing it's the 3rd out rolls the ball back out to the circle as team starts to dugout, meanwhile runner at 3rd easily scores.

What's the call?

 

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That has happened to us a couple of times. If the girls don't go back, then you will be fine as long as you let the umpires know and remind them of the awarded appeal. If they do, then you lose. It only took once for us to figure that one out. But that could be another set of rules.

 

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This is an easy one for the umpire to correct, since the situation was caused by his misqueue. Umpire should send the runner back to 3rd and proceed with the next batter, exactly as it would have been if he/she didn't make the mistake.

 

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In USSSA, there is a rule for umpires for this. It's Rule 10 - I'm God. It is my JOB to make sure the game is played under "fair" conditions.

 

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Had this happen this past summer;

There is a runner on 3rd that was originally called out at 1st but on an appeal awarded 1st. On a sac bunt runner goes from 1st to 3rd, runner called out at 1st. Next batter strikes out and home plate calls out "that's the 3rd outs ladies", catcher believing it's the 3rd out rolls the ball back out to the circle as team starts to dugout, meanwhile runner at 3rd easily scores.

What's the call?

Let me try to boil that down to what I think you are asking...

"What should happen when the umpire announces there are three outs and the players react accordingly, but there are really less than three outs?".

First off, shame on the players. They should always know the number of outs. They have coaches to remind them, should be reminding each other, should have their heads in the game and are perfectly capabale of counting as high as "3"!

But on this one I'll put the blame and the shame on the umpire. He made an incorrect announcement and that seems to have led to the confusion. If it is clear that the umpire announcing three outs, when there were only two, caused the defense to head off the field, then the offense should not benefit from this.

It's actually covered in the rule book. The ASA rule is 10-3-C and most other associations will have a similar rule. This rule says that "The plate umpire may rectify any situation where the reversal of an umpire's decision or a delayed call by an umpire places a batter-runner, a runner or the defensive team in jeopardy".

Once the mistake is noted, the plate umpire should fix this. The fix is at his discretion and judgment, but the goal should be to reset things to exactly how they would have been had the mistake not been made in the first place. My solution would be to put the runner back on third, announce that there are now two outs and get a batter in the batter's box.

This is altogether different than a situation where the defense just thinks there are three outs on their own and heads off the field (I've seen it happen). If the defense screwed up, then it's on them. The ball remains live and the runners get whatever they get. It's not the umpire's responsibility or duty to protect the teams from their own stupidity.

 

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bretman, there was confusion on the defense, but the catcher (back up catcher) rolled the ball out towards the circle and ran off the field (back up catcher) adding further to the confusion.

anyone else before I state what actually happened?

 

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If the defense reacted to an announcement of three outs, the rules do provide a means to correct that.

On the other hand, there is no specific remedy offered and any "fix" is solely at the discretion of the umpires. They don't absolutely have to put the runner back and continue the inning. I'm just saying that, to me, if it is obvious that the defense was put in jeopardy by an umpire mistake, I would be inclined to fix it and the rules back up my right to do that.

So what is "obvious"? After the strike out, did the defense stay put on the field until they were essentially "chased off" by the umpire saying, "That's three outs"? Or, did they start running off the field on their own the instant the strike out happened and then the umpire said, "That's three"?

Was the catcher standing there holding the ball, maybe checking the runner at third or trying to throw it back to the pitcher after the strike out, then rolled it back only after the umpire's announcement?

The exact sequence of who said what, when it was said and how the players were reacting would be the key in determining if this was the umpire's fault (correctable) or the team's fault (not correctable).

So, what is "the call"? There really isn't any one single right answer- the devil is in the details! I get the impression that you must think this was the umpire's fault and they should not allow the run- or else you probably wouldn't have posted this! I couldn't say for 100% sure that this was the umpire's fault without having seen it or getting some of those details filled in.

But, if it was, my opinion would be that they should have put the runner back and continued the inning. Something tells me that's not what happened...

 

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at the age group in which it happened, I wouldn't put the blame on the umpire, but the defense. The umpires call did confuse the defense though. The 3rd base coach sent his runner home as soon the catcher rolled the ball out and abandoned her position, she was off the field before the ball reached the circle.

after conferring with one another, the umpires came to the conclusion there were only 2 outs and the run counts, and the home plate umpire offered an apology.

 

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That's a bull move by the umpire. He would NEVER, EVER umpire for me ever again in his whole life if he didn't make the matter fair to the teams. I understand the girls should know... but so should the umpire. When he said it's three outs girls.. he put himself in a position of giving advantage to the offensive team.

We make mistakes.. we do... but we correct them as well...Especially in this situation.

ABSOLUTELY a terrible excuse for an umpire in my opinion.

 

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I guess some people would rather win on a technicality than with fair play.

 

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That's a "protestable" decision. Rule books give coaches "relief" from such madness.

 

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That's a "protestable" decision. Rule books give coaches "relief" from such madness.

I'm not sure if a protest would fly on this one (and I hope I never have to find out).

The section in the rule book covering umpire duties (Rule 10 in the ASA book) are generally considered as "guidelines", not "playing rules". A formal protest can only be filed over the misapplication of a playing rule.

ASA spells this out under Rule 9 which covers protests. See the final sentence under Rule 9: Failure of umpires to adhere to rule 10 shall not be grounds for protest. These are guidelines for umpires.

If an umpire mistake disadvantages one of the teams, the rules do allow it to be corrected, but they don't require the umpires to correct it. Any correction is entirely at the discretion and judgment of the umpires.

Personally, if this is my game and I'm convinced that my incorrect call put a team in jeopardy, then I'm going to fix it. I would hope that any conscientious umpire would do the same thing. But if he didn't, I don't think that it could be "officially" protested and, unfortunately, you're stuck with the result of the play.

I could see a team wanting to protest this and maybe even getting the tournament director involved. It might not even be a stretch of the imagination to have the TD step in and try to fix this. That might not be a "by the book" application of the protest rules, but I could see it happening.

It's a sticky situation, one I've never been in and hope that I never am. No matter what happens, one team or the other is going to be ticked off about it.

 

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Ok, here is a similar situation in which the umpire correcte the call, but went too far. My team was on defense, there was one out and the other team had runners on 2nd and 3rd. Fly ball to RF. RF catches ball. Runner on third is tagging. On the catch, the home plate umpire yells "that's three outs." My RF is throwing home to get the tagging runner, but my catcher had turned to ask the umpire if that was three, he said yes, and she began walking off the field. The throw then came in and bounced around the backstop as my catcher had started walking off the field, realizing people were still playing, she got to the loose ball, but not in time to flip it to the pitcher covering home and the runner from second now scoring on the "overthrow." I argued to the umpire that he caused the runner to score by stating "three outs" (I was only arguing the 2nd run, not the girl from third who I am sure would have scored on the tag play regardless). He conferred with his partner, and they put BOTH runners back. Man, was the other team's coach upset. He argued that he understood the second runner being put back, but not the first, I'm not sure what the umpire told him, but he was not happy with it. Luckily, that run did not figure into the outcome of the game, but if it would have there might have been H*&^ to pay.

 

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I'm not sure if a protest would fly on this one (and I hope I never have to find out).

The section in the rule book covering umpire duties (Rule 10 in the ASA book) are generally considered as "guidelines", not "playing rules". A formal protest can only be filed over the misapplication of a playing rule.

ASA spells this out under Rule 9 which covers protests. See the final sentence under Rule 9: Failure of umpires to adhere to rule 10 shall not be grounds for protest. These are guidelines for umpires.

If an umpire mistake disadvantages one of the teams, the rules do allow it to be corrected, but they don't require the umpires to correct it. Any correction is entirely at the discretion and judgment of the umpires.

Personally, if this is my game and I'm convinced that my incorrect call put a team in jeopardy, then I'm going to fix it. I would hope that any conscientious umpire would do the same thing. But if he didn't, I don't think that it could be "officially" protested and, unfortunately, you're stuck with the result of the play.

I could see a team wanting to protest this and maybe even getting the tournament director involved. It might not even be a stretch of the imagination to have the TD step in and try to fix this. That might not be a "by the book" application of the protest rules, but I could see it happening.

It's a sticky situation, one I've never been in and hope that I never am. No matter what happens, one team or the other is going to be ticked off about it.

I do hope to never be in that situation myself...lol

 

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Ok, here is a similar situation in which the umpire correcte the call, but went too far. My team was on defense, there was one out and the other team had runners on 2nd and 3rd. Fly ball to RF. RF catches ball. Runner on third is tagging. On the catch, the home plate umpire yells "that's three outs." My RF is throwing home to get the tagging runner, but my catcher had turned to ask the umpire if that was three, he said yes, and she began walking off the field. The throw then came in and bounced around the backstop as my catcher had started walking off the field, realizing people were still playing, she got to the loose ball, but not in time to flip it to the pitcher covering home and the runner from second now scoring on the "overthrow." I argued to the umpire that he caused the runner to score by stating "three outs" (I was only arguing the 2nd run, not the girl from third who I am sure would have scored on the tag play regardless). He conferred with his partner, and they put BOTH runners back. Man, was the other team's coach upset. He argued that he understood the second runner being put back, but not the first, I'm not sure what the umpire told him, but he was not happy with it. Luckily, that run did not figure into the outcome of the game, but if it would have there might have been H*&^ to pay.

Umpire once again messed up. Then, to me, the judgement is the girl orginally tagging up at third should score IF in the judgemnt of the umpire she would have done so easily and the second girl (tagging at second base) is placed on third (because she would have went to third on the thrown home).

 

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That's a bull move by the umpire. He would NEVER, EVER umpire for me ever again in his whole life if he didn't make the matter fair to the teams. I understand the girls should know... but so should the umpire. When he said it's three outs girls.. he put himself in a position of giving advantage to the offensive team.

We make mistakes.. we do... but we correct them as well...Especially in this situation.

ABSOLUTELY a terrible excuse for an umpire in my opinion.

A couple of years ago we were faced with that situation. Problem was if we refused the umpire we foreited the game. Would you forfeit? He's still an active Rec league ump in Marietta and could show up at tournaments. What do you do if have him assigned to you with no recourse? Key his car?

 

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A couple of years ago we were faced with that situation. Problem was if we refused the umpire we foreited the game. Would you forfeit? He's still an active Rec league ump in Marietta and could show up at tournaments. What do you do if have him assigned to you with no recourse? Key his car?

Well, what would I have done as a coach? When the incident happened (way before he showed up for his next assignement).. I would have asked the Tournament Director to contact the Umpire Assigner and ask him to contact me.

When the assigner called me.. I would have explained the siutation of what happened and asked the assigners to "talk" with the umpire in question and educate him on the rules in that situation.

Then I hope the umpire NEVER makes that mistake again. No harm in asking an assigner to go over the rules with the umpire.. as the assigner always wants his umpires to be the best he can find. ALWAYS.

But, in some cities... umpires are hard to find and anyone with a uniform can be used to fill a desparately needed position as an umpire.

I was doing a men's league in Kentucky for years. Great AA teams. Had a loud mouth SS who thought he knew it all. Every game. YAK< YAK< YAK...lol

Then the "D" State Tournament came to town. 122 teams ... This SS decided to become an umpire and the owner of the complex put him with me.... as a base umpire.

After HIS four game stint... he walked up to me and said he would never again say anything to an umpire and went home to never umpire again.

I umpired that league for three more years... he played in it for those three years.... and not ONCE did he ever say anything to an umpire... even if they blew the call. Fellow umpires asked "What did you do to him?" ... lol

Please don't key the umpire's car. The money is good.. but we umpires enjoy the game or we wouldn't be doing it.

 

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One way an umpire can avoid fiascos like this is by NOT routinely saying, "That's three outs" when an out is made. There's nothing requiring him to say it or announce the number of outs, there's no real reason to say it and it isn't a recommended mechanic in any umpire manual.

Just call the out, just like any other, and let the teams react as they may. This totally puts the onus on the teams to know the game situation and the number of outs. It eliminates the possibility of something like this ever happening, even if it is a one-in-a-million chance. Anything an umpire can do to eliminate any chance of confusion from a call is a good thing!

The only time I might ever announce, "That's three outs", is when the third out actually has been made, but the defense doesn't seem to realize it and isn't moving off the field. I'll say this just to get them off the field and keep the game moving along. If they're running off the field on their own, there's no need to say anything at all.

There isn't an umpire around who hasn't at one time or another lost track of the count or the number of outs. It can happen to the best of them and will happen if you work enough games. By not routinely announcing, "That's three outs, Ladies", at the end of every half-inning you have eliminated the chance that your simple misque is going to bite you in the butt!

 

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Agree. Less words.. the better. Out, safe , strike... (even though I catch myself saying baaallllll every once in awhile...lol ... I shouldn't.

 

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Well, what would I have done as a coach? When the incident happened (way before he showed up for his next assignement).. I would have asked the Tournament Director to contact the Umpire Assigner and ask him to contact me.

When the assigner called me.. I would have explained the siutation of what happened and asked the assigners to "talk" with the umpire in question and educate him on the rules in that situation..

I doubt it would work that way around here. Even if it did you would be told what you want hear. Then the next game you would have the same ump. The question is, what do you do? My experience has been to just keep the mouth shut, hunker down and suffer.