Pitching and Pitchers Discussion when should........

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Our catchers have called their own games since they were 11. I guess I disagree with DaBoss, for reasons that include the points made by ab209ljf. I also disagree, because our catchers have virtually no exposure to being blamed for making the wrong call. We sometimes talk to our catchers about what pitch was called and whether something else would have been better, but that is really quite infrequent. And I don't think we have EVER put the blame for a game loss on a catcher's call.

Sure, these catchers will probably have college staffs that take over calling the game. But presumably whoever is sitting on that bucket will discuss with and invite input from the catcher regarding the calls before, during, and after the game and we think we are preparing the catchers a lot better for those conversations by letting them call their own game now. Same goes for our pitchers, who have reasonable leeway to shrug off any particular called pitch.

I'm pretty darn sure that if you asked our catchers whether they would prefer a pitching coach to call the game, their answers would be a resounding no.

 

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The other advantage that the catcher provides is that they know what the strike zone is on that day better than anyone as well as how the pitches are moving. From the dugout you cannot tell how much off the corner they are giving you.

Also, not every college coach calls the pitches. Dave Leffew told me that at Ashland University the catchers call the game not the coaches

 

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Tough question...I'm working with my pitchers and catchers now to call their own game--Definitely a work in progress. I want them to have a firm understanding of what pitches to call for a certain batter. They both have to agree on the pitch. There have been some questionable decisions made by them, but all in all, it's been a positive experience. There are times, though, that I step in to "help" out! Not exactly sure that in full tournament swing, that I'll keep this going, but they are getting a firm grasp of the reasons certain pitches are called....

 

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When somebody else's little angel gets good enough to overtake the other for the #1 slot.

Ding, winner.

 

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Our catchers started calling their own games here and there at 14U.
We started weening our girls off of the dependency of having dad or coaches call pitches at that time as well.

It has helped the girls out tremendously!

Actually, all the players started to get more focused and started to react better to situations and anticipate plays once they were given a little more freedom.
Pitchers were given freedom to shake off a sign and catchers were encouraged to take control...go out to the pitcher and make sure everyone was on the same page.

Worked well for us... but; I agree there are some players that needs the guidance well into 16/18U level sometimes beyond.

 

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I hate seeing a coach dodge responsibility and punish kids because they don't play out the game as the coach envisioned it.

I am really torn on this. I coach 16u kids (95's) that are decent players. My 2 catchers have the highest softball IQ on the team. They both went to college camps last summer and the coaches there told them and their parents to ask me if I would consider letting them call their own games. I had never done that before. I spent a lot of time with them this fall talking to them about what I think about as I am calling pitches. We talked about situations and how I go after different hitters. They loved it. I let them call their own games the entire fall. I had another coach of ours going over the hitters history - so I was able to override pitches and plays if I wanted to make sure certain things happened. I was very happy with how they did. I can honestly say that I can only remember a few times where they called the wrong pitch or defense. Each time they did I would wait for them after the inning and they knew exactly what they called wrong and what it should have been. They would then go to the pitcher and talk it through. In my opinion it was a great learning experience for them and me.

If I didn't have these two kids I probably wouldn't do it. I certainly wouldn't at a younger age. But as the college coaches said, it makes them be in control and really think the game. Now another Tournament Coach I respect a ton is totally against it. His view is that he was a catcher, he has the hitters data - so he knows best...lol

I will try to allow them to continue doing this as we play the ASA Qualifying circuit - hopefully the fall taught them well.

 

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As soon as the coach teaches the catcher and pitcher to call them...

Love this!!! :yahoo:

 

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I tried to keep my first response short but would like to add now that others have responded. Oh come on, you knew I’d respond again. Lol.

As a coach; I always talk game with my catchers. I explain throughout the game, when I can, why we just did something at that moment and what triggered me to call a particular pitch or location. If you know me, I'm always coaching/teaching the entire game and enjoy the down time with pitchers and catchers to ask what they thought of us calling the game the way we did and see what they think they would have done different. I make mistakes----I'm human.

I HAVE called a wrong pitch before. I always take responsibility for my mistake and some times when it's not my fault. I've been known to yell out after a big hit during the game that it was "My fault, I called the wrong pitch and you did exactly what I asked you to do. I accept the responsibility for that runner, now help me out and let's get out of this thing." Anything to calm the girls and get them focused on the next play. While it does get easier when they are older, I try to minimize girls looking back when their minds should be focusing forward.

When I have a player, any player, in the dugout with me I let her sit on the bucket and signal the catcher the upcoming pitch while talking game with her. This helps keep that roll player involved and hopefully they learn more as to the strategy of the game from a different perspective. The girls enjoy doing this and if more players are in the dugout I rotate them on the bucket.

If we have a big lead, especially during pool play, I'll let the catcher call an inning or 2 and observe. If things begin to move the wrong direction, I'll get my catcher's attention and signal pitches to her till we get out of a jam. It's always subtle and between us. Most wouldn't know any better unless they see her turning her head between pitches.

I still believe the girls are best suited for worrying about everything else and as mentioned in another post, leave me to call the game because of my homework, scouting, and pregame preparation. Seldom do I see my catchers watching the games of our upcoming opponents for anything more than the entertainment value. I've asked them if they notice certain things about other teams, things that are obvious to me, yet the answer is almost always negative. Perhaps when they are older it'll come full circle and I have never coached a college team. I still believe that I would call the game from the dugout till a catcher gained my total confidence.

I would never blame my catcher or my pitcher for choosing a pitch but would gladly accept the responsibility for a negative result. After all; if I allow it to happen it's no different than me calling or throwing it myself.

Every team, every coaching situation will call for a coach to adapt and utilize the resources available. cgs and others may be blessed with the talent that can perform with the responsibility expected of them. Someone mentioned having 2 high quality catchers on the same team? My Lord, I wouldn't know how to act with such a blessing. lol. Seriously, I'm envious and while this is no slam on ANY players I've ever coached, I've never had the privilege to have a roster like that. It has to be a comfort and I admit I focus on pitching during tryouts and should probably pay more attention to the catching position.

Regardless; I respect cgs and other coaches for their choices. I believe they are quality instructors with their own methods and expectations.

 

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How about letting the hitting coach call the pitches?

Laughing now?

The hitting coach is going to pick up the bad habits of the hitter and identify weaknesses in the swing... "Dropping hands... stay up in the zone" "Opening up too soon... outside corner..." etc. etc.

The hitting coach may be the only one on the field or in the dugout that are picking up the bad tendencies of the hitter...

Just a thought....

 

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How about letting the hitting coach call the pitches?

Laughing now?

The hitting coach is going to pick up the bad habits of the hitter and identify weaknesses in the swing... "Dropping hands... stay up in the zone" "Opening up too soon... outside corner..." etc. etc.

The hitting coach may be the only one on the field or in the dugout that are picking up the bad tendencies of the hitter...

Just a thought....

Bingo!

 

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The parents should NEVER call pitches!!! I think the catcher should call the games but if you haven't instructed her on how to do so, than the coach should.

Don't get me started on coaches calling games again!!!

 

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DaBoss:

You make some valid points about observing the other games and knowing the hitters. However, how many coaches actually do that? When I would call pitches in baseball and softball I always either kept the book myself as the bench coach or would have the person with the book by me. I would make notes about the hitters and what we did with them the last time and whether it worked or not. If we saw those players again I had a pretty good book on them. Playing 3 pool games on a Saturday, however, you don't have much of a chance to see other teams that you haven't played. With they way we worked our schedule you were lucky if you saw the same team more than twice in a summer.

My observation of most teams we faced with the coach calling the pitches was the guy sat on the bucket and gave the signs and the person with the book was nowhere near them. So that person actually had less information than the catcher.

What I found works the best was keeping the book, making my notes, and if I was pretty sure what needed to be thrown I had some verbal cues to call out to the catcher and pitcher. I also would talk to the them between innings about who was coming up, what was and wasnt working, what the umpire was doing etc. Most of the times it isn't the call made as much as the execution (like a hanging drop or curve). My daughter catches and even though I no longer coach, I still give her feedback about what was called in different situations (well after the game of course) whether she is calling the pitches or the coach is. Her high school coach has told me that my daughter calls a better game than she would.

 

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In my opinion, the battery should be taught how to call their own game from early on. They have the best vantage point and a well trained battery can pick out a batter's weakness. They know their own and each other's strengths and weaknesses. However, this works best if they practice together often and the coaches spend the time teaching them situations and the best pitches to throw when. Boys are taught to call their own games. Why not girls?

 

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My opinion corresponds most closely with daboss and flarays ... coaches normally do until and unless the catchers get to the point where they can really do it themselves. That means working with them talking about the game and letting them call some innings here and there, same as you teach anyone anything else. Some catchers will never get there if they aren't really students of the game. And to the point made by someone else about hitting coaches doing it, a person good at calling pitches can read the weaknesses of hitters very well. My daughter who is both a college pitcher and hitter will have that responsibility for our team until if and when she able to teach our catchers. And it goes without saying that no one outside the fence will be doing it ... ever ...

 

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DaBoss:

You make some valid points about observing the other games and knowing the hitters. However, how many coaches actually do that? When I would call pitches in baseball and softball I always either kept the book myself as the bench coach or would have the person with the book by me. I would make notes about the hitters and what we did with them the last time and whether it worked or not. If we saw those players again I had a pretty good book on them. Playing 3 pool games on a Saturday, however, you don't have much of a chance to see other teams that you haven't played. With they way we worked our schedule you were lucky if you saw the same team more than twice in a summer.

My observation of most teams we faced with the coach calling the pitches was the guy sat on the bucket and gave the signs and the person with the book was nowhere near them. So that person actually had less information than the catcher.

What I found works the best was keeping the book, making my notes, and if I was pretty sure what needed to be thrown I had some verbal cues to call out to the catcher and pitcher. I also would talk to the them between innings about who was coming up, what was and wasnt working, what the umpire was doing etc. Most of the times it isn't the call made as much as the execution (like a hanging drop or curve). My daughter catches and even though I no longer coach, I still give her feedback about what was called in different situations (well after the game of course) whether she is calling the pitches or the coach is. Her high school coach has told me that my daughter calls a better game than she would.

Great Post... A lot of teams do not understand the importance of keeping a quality book and having the score keeper on the bench... Our catchers come off the field looking for the score keeper to see how the inning played out and what may be coming up the next inning...

 

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In college, isn't the pitching coach calling the game? And if so, our catchers might as well get used to it in high school, right?

As for Dads (or Moms) calling pitches...NO...sit back & just enjoy your kid playing.

 

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The catcher and pitcher should call the game, especially at 13u and up. More often than not, it is the bad location of the pitch instead of the called pitch that hitters hammer.

The reason coaches (at all levels) call the pitches is because they want control, especially when the team's very good. That way they want everyone to believe, including themselves, that they called a masterful game, when in reality it is because they have a dominating pitcher.

They honestly believe they can do a better job at calling the pitches rather than some 14yr old kid.....WRONG!!!!! Sorry coaches, but you are not out on the field and don't think for a minute that you are better equipped to call the game than the tandem of the catcher and pitcher. These young ladies are smarter than you think. Give them a chance. I do believe however that the coach can call a pitch on occasion.

In MS ball, our coach has let my dd call the games and if I'm not mistaken our win/loss record is solid. I talk to my dd all the time about pitch management. College coaches like it when HS catchers call their own game. Teach the young ladies how to call a game. Give it a try.....

Len

 

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@Tbones Mom:

I addressed your point about college coaches calling pitches in my earlier post. Also, as flarays pointed out, some college coaches are requesting that catchers have the experience prior to coming to college of calling their own game.

 

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Have to disagree with you on this one, Lenski. Most coaches (including college ones) call the game because they want to win, and will do whatever they need to do to improve those chances ... not because they want to brag about how well they called the game ... can't say I have ever heard a coach do that. Some coaches let their catchers do it if they think they can do a better job. I do agree with you that most unsuccessful pitches are due to location and not the pitch itself, which is why location is a key part of calling pitches.

 

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I have my catchers call the game, at 10u they have 2 pitches and 4 locations. The way I look at it is, what better way for a catcher to learn to call a game then by calling a game. We have conversations between innings and guidance but IMO experience is the best teacher. I can see why a coach calls a game, but I really don't think a non coach parent should be at all. Just my 2 cents.