Withdrawals and Refunds Softball Tournament policy on refunds - what examples would you consider fai

[TheSoftballZone]

Withdrawals and Refunds Softball Tournament policy on refunds - what examples would you consider fair?

Here a few examples of the policy we had for tournaments I ran over the years and all the policy were always easy to find an locate on the tournament(s) web sites. The example below is based on a Tournament held July the 28th in 2010.


No Refund will be given for team(s)that are a no shows.

Pulling Out Before June 30, 2010

A.) 80% Of all fees paid will be Refunded.

Pulling Out After July 01, 2010

B.) 70% Of all fees paid will be Refunded.

Pulling Out After July 07, 2010

C.) "No Refund"


D.) No Refund if you only made a Deposit.


Notice *
Refund Policy: After July 07, 2010 / no refunds will be provided. No exceptions will be made to this policy regardless of the tournament's ability to refill the spot. If you need to pull out, you must call 0.000.000.0000 We will not accept email, messages posted
inside a forum, private messages, text messages or voice mail as a Official Pull Out. Once you made
a Official Pull Out, we will process and return the amount due within 7 Business days.

The notice above may seem hard core but we were force to enforce the above due to people saying they contacted me by email, text, on the forum or left a voice mail to make a official pullout but we would never receive anything from them.


So what examples would you consider fair? I would like to see reply's from Girls Softball Coaches and Girls Softball Tournament Directors. Are the Coaches and Tournament Directors on the same page when it comes to enforcement of Policy's?


Here another example of a refund policy I found on another web site that the reason inside the code.

If the entire tournament is cancelled due to rain or some other unforseen event, we will issue you a refund. One-half (1/2) of your paid entry fee may be refunded. The other one-half(1/2) of your paid entry fee will be non-refundable, due to pre-tournament incurred expenses. The non-refundable amount may increase at the sole descretion of the tournament directors, depending upon incurred costs for that tournament.

I'm not sure if I agree, if a event is cancel you would only receive half of your entry fee's. Has anyone ever had that happen?

 

[CARDS]

http://www.premiergirlsfastpitch.com/refund_policy

We played in several large 5/7 GG events that had a no refund policy in the event of weather or if you pulled out after the schedule was posted. In some tournaments if you played 2 or more games no refunds. (This hit us in a 7gg tournament that was plagued by rain where we spent 4 days in a hotel to play 2 games). Seems like the more you pay for an event the less likely you receive a refund in the event of weather unless the whole tournament is canceled. Deposits in a lot of events are non refundable but a lot of events are moving to pay in full first then we will tell you if you made the cut. If not they destroy the check.

With some of these events costing $700 or more not playing a game and getting only half back doesn't seem to be fair. No way the expenses on some of these large $700 dollar or more events have that much out on the front end.
Now I am ok with tournaments as a fundraiser or smaller events keeping a small percentage of the fee for their fundraiser and cost but a lot of these mega events are the ones that have issues when bad weather hits and they are "for profit events" so giving back cash is not a priority.

Good time for TDs to chime in on what expenses they incur when hosting events to give others an idea or cost per game/event.

I helped with the Keith Carver for 6 years.
This was a fundraising event so we made scholarship money from donations, split the pot, concession sales, sales from tournament items and a small portion from tournament fees.
In that time we had three years with rain. One time it was a wash out everyone received 100% refund. The other times Sunday play was rained out teams received 50% back. All teams played their 3 pool play games on Saturday and the Sunday 1 and out part was canceled. Awards were passed out off of pool finish.

My short list of expenses we had:
Park Rental fee...This will vary (we had fields donated from the city/county at three parks for our scholarship event $0). When I rented from the township as a resident $50 per field all day rental. Included field prep 200 foot fences but we had to reline in between games.
Sanction fees... (Keith Carver was a non sanction event $0) Most sanctioning bodies are around $400 and you may have to purchase balls, banners etc. Some require attending teams to purchase insurance. Thus another expense for teams.
Tournament Insurance... (sometimes part of a sanction fee) we used a separate policy that was $300 for the weekend and covered all three parks used. We required all teams to show proof of team insurance at check in as well.
Concessions.... including cups, plates paper towels etc. (Maysville Kroger donated burgers, hot dogs and buns) but we still had around $1000 in concession expenses for the weekend. This should be a profit center overall so I would exclude this from tournament cost.
Rest room Port A Potty rental.....(Rumpke donated 4 for the weekend so for us $0) Generally $100 a unit per day
Awards...We had T-Shirts for winner and Runner up for the open event. Trophies and dog tags for the HS events. (little over $500
Umpires...They along with U.I.C generally comes with part of the sanctioning and the cost will vary per game. We used KHSAA and NCAA umpires and gave them free food /drink and $25 a game. two umpires per game championship game 3 umpires. Most tournaments pay games played or started and that is how we did it.
Balls...We used WORTH NCAA .47 .400 $80 per dozen.(two new balls per game around $18 per game)

Total cost per game about $100 to $150 per game or $50 per team per game worst case $75 per team per game.

In the event of rain field dry may need to be purchased/used to keep the event going about $15 per 60lb bag for the good stuff. Cheap Corn husk stuff $7 a bag

 

[Fairman]

Although I would hate it when teams cancel I really want them to tell me about it. There is nothing worse than one team showing up to play and the other nowhere to be found at an 8:00AM game on a Saturday morning. The forfeit hardly seems worthwhile. A refund might be enough incentive for the coach to make a phone call. If there are no refunds then why even bother to let you know they weren't coming.

I would recommend that you always refund something so that teams let you know that they aren't coming. You can be grumpy about issuing the refund but at least you have a chance to provide a substitute game or at least keep someone from traveling to a game site and having to explain the 'no-show' to a bunch of kids, parents and coaches way to early in the morning.

Give 'em back a hundred bucks or two just for a simple phone call.

 

[Fairman]

Refunds are tricky.

If we have a monsoon and the tournament can be canceled before anyone shows up We will have over 80% of our expenses already obligated. The only thing we’d be able to save is the umpire per game fees.

If a portion of the tournament gets rained out, say on a Sunday, most all of the expenses are incurred. We even pay our umpires an appearance fee in that condition. We are very close to 100% of expenses even when those games are canceled.

Now the scary thing for this TD is that your registration fee doesn’t cover the expenses (surprised?) and we rely on t-shirt sells, concessions and donations to actually raise money for our community groups.

When any of a tournament is canceled these sales fall and the tournament might be underwater, it might not recover.

 

[Captain_Thunder]

Refunds are tricky.

If we have a monsoon and the tournament can be canceled before anyone shows up We will have over 80% of our expenses already obligated. The only thing we’d be able to save is the umpire per game fees.

If Umpires are less than 20% of your tournament expenses - Something is wrong!!!
There should not be any event where the Umpires are not the major expense! Unless you are paying to bring in dozens of D1 coaches from all over the country......

 

[CARDS]

Umpire fees generally run about 50% of the per game fee. Unless playing in a stadium or dome...

 

[Captain_Thunder]

Umpire fees generally run about 50% of the per game fee. Unless playing in a stadium or dome...

Umpires are gonna be at least $74 per game.
Shouldn't pay more than $60 per dozen of balls. In a large weekend tournament, other costs like field rental, fences/potties rental, insurance, misc.expenses would breakdown to very little per game. The bigger the tourney - the higher the percentage.......
So Umpires are 70-85% of per game cost.......

 

[CARDS]

Wow $35-$40 a game per umpire is good money is that a single umpire working game or what they are getting for two?

 

[wvanalmsick]

Wow $35-$40 a game per umpire is good money is that a single umpire working game or what they are getting for two?

Per umpire. So, if you say that each game will have 2 umpires, then double that. That is what has really driven up the tournament costs. Of course, this demand was brought on by teams and parents complaining about the issues with just one umpire.

As for refunds, I would say that if you withdraw after the deadline, then no refund. The tournament has to try to find another team to get into the tournament so they usually have to offer no entry fee as an enticement. So, in effect, the team that dropped out is paying the entry fee for the replacement team.

 

[Jose_canusee]

We do offer refunds from a dropped team if a replacement team is found. At times the dropped team has helped out with that. Umpires are by far the bulk of your budget as well as field rental/lights depending on where your tournaments are held.

 

[Mike_Craig_-_Ohio USSSA]

I have put together a Refund and Tournament Completion Policy for our events. If a TD sets up a rain/refund policy then that is what the event will follow. If they don't or would rather follow ours when they host with us, then this is what gets followed.

When we get inside 2 weeks, I give no refunds on a dropped team. The reason is it gets very hard to get a replacement unless that spot gets offered for free or a major discount (usually half price). I know it is harsh but there has to be some policy or teams will just wait until the draw, decide they don't like their pool of teams or start times, and drop and go someplace else.

Ohio USSSA Refund and Tournament Completion Policy

 

[Davemy]

Aunt Rosie's
REFUND POLICY: Teams withdrawing: a) Prior to Dec. 31, 2016 will receive a 75% refund. b) Between Jan 1st and Mar 31st will receive a 50% refund c) Between Apr 1st and the start of the tournament are not guaranteed any refund.
16U Invitational Tournament, Once accepted no refund if you pull out!
In the five years I have been involved we have never had to give a refund for rain.

 

[ech92]

Were do you stand on refunds as far as rainouts when it comes to say 4gg or 5gg? Almost every tournament says 4gg weather permitting ( the gg means games guaranteed ) putting weather permitting doesn't over ride that! This happened to us; we played in a 4gg $450. ( oh by the way the refund policy was not on web site but was emailed to us the night before tournament started basically because rain was in the forcast ) we played 1 pool play game in the pooring rain and didn't finish that game, then got 1 bracket game. We got ZERO refund! Their police was no games played = $300. back, 1 game played = $225. back, 2 games or more played = $0. back! First off that's terrible and second they said since we played half a game in the pooring rain ( which they knew what they were doing, this would mean they could keep more money ) that this game counted and there for we played 2 out of 4 games!
If you say guaranteed you should stand by that!

 

[TheSoftballZone]

Rain out Refunds - if you have a complete wash out (no game played).

Minus any expenses then refund what's left, basically the (TD) or organization walk away with no money earned.

If you played more then 2 games and then get wash out, this can be a major struggle for any (TD) just to break even when this happens. I believe if you get two games in that the (TD) shouldn't have to give refunds.

 

[Bob_Himmelein]

Interesting Thread, the comment above, I would just ask how would a tournament insure you get four games if the games are rained out? I would agree that a "zero" refund may not have appropriate, but since I was not there, it would be hard to comment further and not knowing what the costs for the TD were, it is hard to really say more.

Some other comments, umpires are at least 60 to 70 percent of costs. It is just a fact of life, even at 10U, if one umpire is used, people complain. We could get into a whole discussion on the issue of how crazy some people get, but that is for another time. On the pay of umpires, we at PGF hold line at $35 for this year again. Remember umpires have to arrive early, may be held over and have to take some games off during the course of a tournament. Also, when it is 95 degrees as we had some last year, the $35 is not a lot! On the average, an umpire may end up make about $15-20 per hour, pay for gas, food, equipment (which while not as costly as some bats) still adds up, uniforms and sanction fees. Again, this is a discussion for another time. We are always looking for umpires and officials in many sports at High School level, which is where most start. If you think umpires/officials get rich doing this, take the classes and start officiating. I am not being critical here, but the people I work with do not do it as a primary income. I personally always joke that if I was not officiating or running tournaments, my better half would have me doing projects at home!

Someone mentioned paying $80 dollars a dozen. Find a new supplier! You can get high quality balls with your logo on them from Sterling for much less than that, including shipping. There is also a company in Solon, which is providing balls for low cost and you can pick them up and not pay shipping. If your sanctioning organization demands you buy balls from them or particular balls, then be assured they are getting something out of it. This is in effect a hidden sanction fee. Another pet peeve of mine is organizations that will not accept insurance unless it is bought through them for local or regional tournaments. One group accepts any as long as it meets the same requirement that are almost universal, why do other not?

Costs vary with tournaments. For many years I ran tournaments on fields where I did not have to pay rental costs and had volunteers doing work. Getting volunteers to do work is harder and harder as many of you know. I believe many tournaments have pretty much given up on depending on volunteers.

Costs can very some locations charge you a fee to rent fields, either by the day for the complex or by the field. Some will charge a gate fee and/or keep all concessions monies. I personally find it better to let another group run the concessions and they provide some field help or just keep it for there group/team. Remember these folks are taking a risk also if weather turns bad. Also some fields will provide all or some field maintenance, this varies as does the cost.


Another question is does the community fields or business the TD is getting fields from provide field dry, markings etc, if not these cost can get substantial if weather turns bad. Price field dry sometime, it is not cheap. Yet, you have people who think you can just throw bags and bags of it around on fields which are well beyond any hope. Again, a discussion for another time.

Tournament Sanctions fees vary widely and if your talking about a National Qualifier, you as TD will have higher fees. Some organizations charge per team, some are flat rate. I know I used to run some tournaments which were charging $40 per team to the TD as sanctioning fee, moved on from that! Ask the TD what sanction fees to the Tournament are.

As for dropping out of tournaments and a refund being given, in my early season tournaments, I will allow older teams to drop on pretty short notice if the have players still involved in OHSAA play-offs. Most will tell me ahead of time of this possibility. It is a hassle when teams drop out and the schedule needs to be changed, and I understand why some TD's do not give refunds unless replacement is found. On the whole, if a team notifies me before schedule is put out, I have no issues giving a refund. That being said, if I have turned away teams that wanted to play, some sanction may be in order. It can be a royal pain in the butt to move schedule around and not one, that team would have played in Pool play or even on Sunday wants to take a forfeit.

Bottom line, the ideas of set percentages is difficult as costs vary from Tournament to Tournament. Even this year, I have some tournaments which a gate fee is required by the field owners and others I do not have to charge a gate fee and don't. Many times this is set by the facilities, not the TD, as is the case in some of mine.

Not sure this helps the discussion at all, but from having run tournaments, coaching and umpiring, this is how I have come to see things. How you all have a Merry Christmas and/or Holiday season!

 

[Fairman]

Before my tournament starts I have already bought 350 bags of field-dry, 100 bags of marking lime, 60 cans of marking paint, 800 T-shirts, 25 pitchers plates, 10 home plates, various hand tools (rakes, shovels, liners), printed 50 college coach's books ($500 in printing), prepared 30 fields ($10,000 in labor) installed 5 outfield fences, setup 18 ports-johns. used 44 tons of infield mix to repair various fields, hired 40 field reps, coordinated 16 community organizations, hired and organized 3 teams of field workers (with trucks) filed insurance paperwork for 30 fields and forwarded the certificates the field owners. I have coordinated with the sanctioning body the game schedules with umpires. The trophies are purchased and 60 dozen softballs are on the way....and not a game has been played.

All your team has to do is pay the entry fee and just show up.

Don't sign up if you aren't coming. The TD's don't need the hassle. We have to deal with rain, teams that do show along with volunteers, paid workers, an irate coach, and grumpy parent........did I mention rain?

It's wonder that we don't charge a team more to cancel...

 

[wvanalmsick]

What do you do for teams that you know have booked 2 different tournaments on the same weekend? Using one as an insurance tournament in case they don't get selected for their primary tournament?

 

[Jose_canusee]

If a team is honest and tells me they are dropping to go somewhere else and I fill their spot. They get a refund. Some teams get great opportunities to go play out of state after they have registered for a tournament, I understand that. Just be honest and give me enough time to find another team. If I can't find a replacement I give them back their money minus their deposit.

 

[Davemy]

Running Tournaments that involves 140 Teams or more, is a year round job. We have a Team of people that help. All Volunteers, T-Shirt coordinator, Concessions Manager, Equipment Managers, Grounds Crew Coordinator, Umpire coordinator , Scheduler, Treasurer, Asst. Tournament Director, Hotel Coordinator, Registration Coordinator, Marketing,
Player Profile Coordinator. ALL our Game Day workers are paid, Concessions, Field Crew and Umpires. We are a non-for profit. All monies made get dumbed back into our complex for improvements. I work way to hard for our Organization to break even if some games get cancelled. It is a Fundraiser for us. Everyone that knows me, knows I put my Heart and Soul into making our Tournament one of the Best around. Weather happens, but the Tournaments that shine are the ones that don't give up the battle!