ASA Tournament 2011 ASA 16u State Tourney June 23-26

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Yes the other age groups have the same issue. Might not be as bad for the tds though especially the 10's and 12's. 1) There are alot fewer teams involved overall 2) Nobody gives a rip about college coaches @ 10 & 12.

 

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So Cal Dad:

You are obviously very familiar with the ASA Code and have a talent for getting it to hang together. How do you conclude that an ASA State Tournament awarding 4 berths to USA/ASA is not a "National Qualifier". I searched the ASA Code for a definition of "National Qualifier" that would exclude a State Championship offering berths and couldn't find anything.

...

I couldn't find anything in the Code that allowed the local association to change the 513.M rule relating to existing berth holders. So absent a specific ASA Code provision, how does ASA Ohio supplant the ASA Code rule on teams that hold existing berths?

Don't say this for the sheer sake of arguing; I'm just really struggling with how Ohio ASA can create a local exception on this point. As I said, I know about the Code provision that you cited regarding the rule on pick-up players prior to the local association championship, but the Code provision that I cited above seems clearly to require application of ASA Code 513.m unless I'm missing something somewhere else in the Code.

Local Association Championships may be qualifiers for Nationals, but they are not National Qualifiers in ASA Code, so 513.M does not apply to them.

- Article 508 clearly lists Local Association Championships and National Qualifiers as separate levels of championship play.

- Article 513 defines National Qualifiers. For JO Girls Class A, they are the tournaments held in each region that are open to any ASA team.

- Article 516.F's listing of the berths for ASA/USA Nats has separate entries for National Qualifiers and associations.

It would be very helpful if people used the correct nomenclature for ASA tournaments.

 

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I have known Warren Jones for some time, since he lives in our area. I can't understand this one, but I will have to hear his side of this issue. To me it just doesn't make since. He will be at Findlay and I'm sure he will be asked to explain it.

He might be better off just getting on the PA and explaining it once.

 

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CGS: Yes you read my affiliation correctly and thank you for your support today and in the past. I enjoy reading your posts and opinions.

ALL: I'm not seeing any rumblings from the 12U, 14U, or 18U groups. Shouldn't this ruling cause rescheduling in their groups also? Have any of the coaches or parents from these other groups received the same notice?

It is the same deal in 18U, although the news came from the 18U State TD, not Warren Jones. Perhaps there are no 18U rumblings because maybe the families on the Stingrays and the Tigerlillies teams don't know it yet.

 

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Seems that Warren is applying the old rule. We're OK with that.Sure we might miss some exposure but we got in a tournament in Toledo and hopefully any coaches looking at our players will make it up there.
I also understand Warrens point about not passing down the berths. Qualified teams could change the dynamics of all others trying to qualify.The bottom line is if you feel you need to be in Findlay forfeit your berth and play there.
A few options for the future would be have the State tournament before all other qualifiers, and also how about straight double elemination. Play Friday night thru Sunday and be home by midnight.The pool games on Thursdays and Friday mornings are nuts.
It's like every week is nationals.
JP Lasers Scarlet

 

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So does anyone know of any other good tournaments that weekend? How about some friendlies between the 16U and 18U teams that are getting the boot? I still can't believe they are doing this now when we have been entered in this tournament since March. Errrrrrrrrr!!!!!

 

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Once again, call the ASA Headquarters and ask for the JO Commissioner.

Amateur Softball Association of America
2801 NE 50th Street
Oklahoma City, OK 73111
(405) 424-5266

 

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Seems that Warren is applying the old rule. We're OK with that.Sure we might miss some exposure but we got in a tournament in Toledo and hopefully any coaches looking at our players will make it up there.
I also understand Warrens point about not passing down the berths. Qualified teams could change the dynamics of all others trying to qualify.The bottom line is if you feel you need to be in Findlay forfeit your berth and play there.
A few options for the future would be have the State tournament before all other qualifiers, and also how about straight double elemination. Play Friday night thru Sunday and be home by midnight.The pool games on Thursdays and Friday mornings are nuts.
It's like every week is nationals.
JP Lasers Scarlet

Interesting takes, bucket.

The Thursday was going to be a KILLER for us, parents work, etc .. plus a kid or two committed to important visits & camps .... you know, trying to take care of college? It does seem like every week is Nationals, and it would be nice to compact things into a long 3 day weekend, but would hate to have no pool games, maybe at least one to get your feet on the ground, even with a huge field of teams (but I get the point).

I get the "beef" both ways, and think there is debatable reasons for both approaches. The key is to have the State Championship EARLIER, as the first qualifier, even though it would be nice to get a few weekends in and make sure all players are back on hand prior to having the State's biggest championship event ... aside from the great Showcase events like Stingrays.

They will get this worked out for the best. Just looking forward to getting the kids back on the field and playing whomever shows up. Always appreciate your perspectives, good luck in Toledo that weekend, hope we get a chance to play you eventually, somewhere.

You still have your courtesy vans running the coaches from game to game, right? .....

 

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Based upon SoCal's posts, while I still think we have a colorable argument that Article 508.A does not allow for a State Championship to restrict USA/ASA berth-holders from participating in State Championships, for a number of reasons including that there has never been any publication of an Ohio/ASA rule on this point and that such a local association rule is inconsistent with the policy expressed by 513.M, I have nonetheless pulled down my previous post of this morning. I don't believe that this dispute can be settled through the ASA Headquarters in time to make any difference.

So we shall just play our hardest at the Region 9 closed qualifier and take the bitter with the sweet should we win.

 

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Based upon SoCal's posts, while I still think we have a colorable argument that Article 508.A does not allow for a State Championship to restrict USA/ASA berth-holders from participating in State Championships, for a number of reasons including that there has never been any publication of an Ohio/ASA rule on this point and that such a local association rule is inconsistent with the policy expressed by 513.M, I have pulled down my previous post of this morning. I don't believe that this dispute can be settled through the ASA Headquarters in time to make any difference.

So we shall just play our hardest at the Region 9 closed qualifier and take the bitter with the sweet should we win.

Lawyer, right? .. just guessing

I have mixed feelings/thoughts about this, some selfish, some sympathetic ... and in the end, I really don't care all that much. It is too bad that the timing of this year's ASA States has caused this issue (in part), and apparently due to either not wanting to have berths passed down, or over concerns regarding "complications" in deciphering place holders, finishes, ties?

But, rather than taking down the local King and his rules, what is the King intending, in terms of the greater good and overall "equity" ... for all? What are his dilemmas?

I get the whole "power to the people" thing, and "we have rights" and we will "fight to the steps of the Supreme Court" ... but, over what?? Do we really want to override Warren Jones' leadership here over this? ... (maybe)?

Perhaps a "summons" to Warren to come to the OFC "town hall" and address his subjects would be in order, so the people can decide if the King is "wise" afterall ... or needs to be boiled in oil (followed by a feast)?

An explanation would be nice, even though I don't really care, personally. Just my $.02

Just sayin' ..........

 

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@pickledad:

Well, as the post that I pulled down said, I have no question that Warren Jones has committed fully to the advancement of Ohio girls fastpitch or that he has spent hours advancing that goal. So if you are implying that I was trying to "bring down the King" or summonses him to a town hall for a potential boiling or to take it to the Supreme Court (trust me, there is no jurisdiction in the Supreme Court for this matter), I'm not clear at all where that is coming from. What we have with respect to the 16u ASA States tournament is a dispute about whether there are any "enacted" Ohio ASA rules that would effectively countermand the policy expressed in ASA Code 513.M that berth holders should not be excluded from other tournaments that are offering berths to USA/ASA Nationals.

This isn't about any animosity with Warren Jones. It's about getting the right result under the ASA Code. As I've said, Warren's position is colorable and therefore we will not be pursuing the issue further.

 

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Moving up States doesn?t solve the problem. The Tigerlillies and the MC Madness teams won their berths at Eastern Nationals last year. Both teams have been entered in their respective States since March. It was not a secret. Why is it an issue now? Eight days before the first pool games. I?m sure there?s a whole lot more to the story that most of us will never find out. But I?m sure some know. That?s why there should be written rules that can be seen and followed by all. Can anyone say dictatorship?

Also, how do you make a schedule for next year? Take CGS?s team this year. Had they won at Dayton they would be out of three other tournaments. As it stands if they win this weekend they are out of States and Strongsville. You?re penalizing a team for being good. It just makes no sense.

 

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Well, as the post that I pulled down said, I have no question that Warren Jones has committed fully to the advancement of Ohio girls fastpitch or that he has spent hours advancing that goal. So if you are implying that I was trying to "bring down the King", I'm not clear at all where that is coming from. What we have with respect to the 16u ASA States tournament is a dispute about whether there are any "enacted" Ohio ASA rules that would effectively countermand the policy expressed in ASA Code 513.M that berth holders should not be excluded from other tournaments that are offering berths to USA/ASA Nationals.

This isn't about any animosity with Warren Jones. It's about getting the right result under the ASA Code. As I've said, Warren's position is colorable and therefore we will not be pursuing the issue further.

cgs,

My apologies, I didn't mean that, and I KNOW your heart and mind are in the right place. More succinctly stated (which is hard for me) ... Warren should address the issue and be heard, as there is both controversy and concerns ... and people are calling for direct action above his head, apparently to test his authority, or at least provide the proper outlet for those looking to be heard further. This may be preventable one way or another through better and timely communication, and handled right here in Brainerd (oh, there I go again ... "Fargo" reference).

In the recent years of overcoming other sanctioning bodies in Ohio, and tremendously growing the ASA brand in Ohio, he doesn't need a confidence disaster on his hands .... I am sure he has his reasons for the recent decision, and he should share them, because like many others I don't see the standards or precedents in place to overrule written rules, as several of you have pointed out .... sorry for the poking at attorneys, I have beeen blessed with great friends and professionals over the years with legal backgrounds when I have needed serious help in business, life, etc.

I repeat, I don't care how it turns out, there is good and bad for my team's situation in all of this, but I am extremely sympathetic to those that are going to miss the "showcase value" as it stands now, and additionally the one team that will be happy as a lark this Sunday evening with their ASA bid in hand, but without plans the following weekend during the State's grand event.

I think Warren needs to explain the situation and then we can move on, one way or another?

Again, I just want to apologize if I was over the top, I speak in analogies and metaphors, maybe too much at times.

 

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Moving up States doesn?t solve the problem. The Tigerlillies and the MC Madness teams won their berths at Eastern Nationals last year. Both teams have been entered in their respective States since March. It was not a secret. Why is it an issue now? Eight days before the first pool games. I?m sure there?s a whole lot more to the story that most of us will never find out. But I?m sure some know. That?s why there should be written rules that can be seen and followed by all. Can anyone say dictatorship?

Also, how do you make a schedule for next year? Take CGS?s team this year. Had they won at Dayton they would be out of three other tournaments. As it stands if they win this weekend they are out of States and Strongsville. You?re penalizing a team for being good. It just makes no sense.

Pretty good point also ......

There is a real dilemma here. As a businessman, and if I ran ASA in Ohio, I know why I would consider handling this the way Warren is at the moment ... for brand growth, nationally. My guess is that you want the VERY BEST teams getting berths, so you are sending your very best possible entrants out to Nationals to do well, and hopefully get even more berths downstream in coming years. What you don't want (again, strictly from a "business perspective") are the Lasers and Tidalwaves, etc., somehow managing to take out the 3-4-5 teams and a couple of bracket busting "cinderella stories" slipping in that have no chance to do well at the Big Show, later on. And, I love Cinderella stories, as that is our positioning, in the competitve landscape, mostly. But, while this is "softball/recreation" to some, it is "business" to some others with positions of responsibility.

The only other possible reasons that I can think of are either: 1) tie-breaking issues on "pass down" slots, or 2) just not wanting a "pass down" label on anyone but rather they earned it on the dirt and knew it at the "last out" rather than in the scoring tent.

Again, I am not taking a side, and I do not know Warren personally, I just feel compelled to look at the other side from the commisioner's POV, for balance. I definitely don't understand why it became an issue at this late date either, though.

I think a statement of some kind from Ohio ASA would be proper, and go a long way to help everyone understand the rationale and overall goals.

 

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@pickledad

I recognize your apology, but I still don't appreciate the apparent connection by you of my posts on this matter to "boiling the King", "summonses to town hall", or "taking it to the Supreme Court" (the latter of which is just ridiculous from a lawyer's perspective). I never threatened on this forum to take it above Warren Jones's head.

So rather than a statement saying that my heart and mind are in the right place, how about a statement that I never suggested anything close to the "King" analogies in your post?

Thank you.

 

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pickledad:

I don't buy the "branding" argument. We're out of the tournament based on a "local" rule that isn't written anywhere and wasn't enforced in past years. What's preventing these same unwritten "local" rules from just giving a berth to a team in the name of "branding"?

As for your argument about getting a handed down berth. There are written national rules to address that very issue.

Bottom line, there is not a written rule to exclude teams from States because they previously won a national bid.

 

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Based upon SoCal's posts, while I still think we have a colorable argument that Article 508.A does not allow for a State Championship to restrict USA/ASA berth-holders from participating in State Championships, for a number of reasons including that there has never been any publication of an Ohio/ASA rule on this point and that such a local association rule is inconsistent with the policy expressed by 513.M, I have nonetheless pulled down my previous post of this morning. I don't believe that this dispute can be settled through the ASA Headquarters in time to make any difference.

ASA's National Qualifiers, Regional Championships and Territory Qualifying Tournaments are all qualifiers for Nationals. ASA names refer to the scope of eligible teams, not the berths that are awarded. 513.M is only applicable to National Qualifiers. If ASA meant it to be an across the board policy, they would have placed the provision in appropriate article(s).

508.A provides local associations the ability to determine eligibility rules for their championships. I know at least one association in NorCal requires its teams participate in a number of ASA tournaments in order to become eligible for their championship.

These tournaments are open to registered member teams in accordance with the rules and regulations of the local association, provided such rules and regulations are not in conflict or inconsistent with this Code or the established policies of the ASA.

Eligibility of previously qualified teams is only specified by ASA Code for National Qualifiers and the HOF tournament, so local associations and regions are free to bar them from their championships.

Our SoCal State Association and Pacific Coast Region 14 have barred previously qualified teams from their championships for years. In the past, the only teams affected were the ones with defending/returning berths because our region schedules their championships and NQs in July - after the association championships. The rationale for barring teams with berths is due to being more concerned about the qualifier aspect than crowning a champion. They felt participation by previously qualified teams skewed the results of qualifying the next best teams by either luck (or unluck) of the draw and/or biased participation (i.e. to help another team, possibly in the same organization).

 

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@SoCal:

You and I differ with regards to the application of 508.A because I think that a rule excluding qualified berth holders is not consistent with the policies established by the ASA Code, but I can and have agreed that it is not worth going to the Nat'l Headquarters at this point.

I also continue to believe that if there are not any published local association rules, there aren't any "enacted" rules under 508.A.

But at this point it is all water under the bridge. We will play for our potential USA/ASA berth this weekend. If we win, we won't be at 16u States. If we lose, we will be at 16u States.

 

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@pickledad

I recognize your apology, but I still don't appreciate the apparent connection by you of my posts on this matter to "boiling the King", "summonses to town hall", or "taking it to the Supreme Court" (the latter of which is just ridiculous from a lawyer's perspective). I never threatened on this forum to take it above Warren Jones's head.

So rather than a statement saying that my heart and mind are in the right place, how about a statement that I never suggested anything close to the "King" analogies in your post?

Thank you.

"Uncle" ... ok? Bad presentation on my part cgs, the only part of that certain reply that you are referencing that was directed at you was the very first line, asking if you were a lawyer ..... via the "colorable argument" terminology ... and it was meant as a poke in the ribs, assuming you have a sense of humor, for fun ...
sorry to offend you.

From there, I was addressing the growing unrest within our OFC softball community, that is building in the absence of "more information" .... that may or may not quell the mob.

I am now going to sit in the corner ... will THAT make you love me??!! .... ((psssst, more "fun"))

I'll be here all week ... tip your waitresses ...... (try the veal!) ...

 

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@pickledad:

Thank you for your acknowledgment that I didn't say anything relating to your "King" analogies. We are good from this end.