Tough decision...what would you have done?

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Uber...come on man

Listen. if the girl had cat like reflexes, can put a glove on after pitching, then I have no problems with that. But it was stated she wasn't there yet. Now, if he stated her reflexes were good enough, then I would have gone the other way. Too many people see a tree from the forest. The facemask, that's a different story. But I feel OnTheBucket did the right thing with the observations he made.

My dd pitches. I also fire balls at her at close range at times when we are outside. Before someone goes ballistic let me PC this, not at her but near her. To help build up her speed for the quick come backers. She had a couple already and snagged them so I'm glad I do.

He never said anything about her reflexes just the transition wasn't smooth or quick enough in his opinion.

 

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He never said anything about her reflexes just the transition wasn't smooth or quick enough in his opinion.

True, but if the transition is not smooth or quick enough therefore reflexes are not there, do you think then if a come backer would-

A) she would use her good hand to deflect

B) attempt to get her hand in the glove and fumble with that (only to be too late) only to be blasted in the arm, face, etc.

c) or duck

This is where I think OnTheBucket made the right call. I won't put words in his mouth BMHO; it wasn't the fact she had a disablilty. It was the fact the transition was not smooth or quick enough.

Taking what I said about a previous thread and what Sammy quoted me on a post. If a travel coach who also coaches a rec team has a travel girl struggling hitting slower pitches. That girl also happens to live in that same town. He invites her to play with his rec team so she can continue improvement. Now your facing a girl who has only one hand pitching but trying to quickly place that hand into her glove after each pitch to attempt to field the ball but can't; do you

a) tell you struggling hitter to lay off becauseyour afraid if a comebacker happens the girl may get seriously injured

b) swing away because I need you for travel

c) I'm sure someone on OFC will say something here.

I think this is where OnTheBucket made the right call as an umpire. I would have a srerious issue even if the pitchers parent said swing away. Maybe the parent has rose colored glasses. I'm sorry but seeing a girl with a disability does change your judgment a bit IMO unless you konw for a fact she can handle the situation. In other words, if this is the first time you seeing this and witnessing a bad transition, you wouldn't change the gameplan a little?

Honestly, I probalby would allow her to blast the ball. I feel the umpire did the right thing.

 

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Brownsfan you like to make up a lot of scenarios lol. A lot of "What ifs"

- what if the team with handicapped pitcher was winning 20-0 and completely over matching a true 14u low level rec team that hasn't hit the ball out of the infield yet?

 

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Brownsfan you like to make up a lot of scenarios lol. A lot of "What ifs"

- what if the team with handicapped pitcher was winning 20-0 and completely over matching a true 14u low level rec team that hasn't hit the ball out of the infield yet?

:lmao:. Did you read my first post? I had a player who should not have played and I allowed her to pitch. My other coach was jumping all over me yelling about safety concerns. I told him if she throws a strike, then I'll buy a steak dinner (I said something elaborate don't remember). The last pitch which was in the general area, I knew to pull her. I was very concerned for her safety but the chances of her throwing a strike and me winning the 300 mill power ball are about the same. I said she could pitch, and she did.

I'm not dogging her if it comes acorss that way. I love her heart and her attitude. She was a sweet kid and learned alot. I would pick her up in a heart beat. She gave me her all everytime but like oil and water, sometimes it just doesn't mix.

 

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I am sorry but the umps were flat out wrong period. As long as the rules do not prevent it and she was not doing breaking any rule she should have been a loud to pitch. This is the decision of the parents and the coach not the ump. So yes, the ump definitely over stepped your authority.

Here one an ump sees extremely fat kid playing third. The ump watches her and the ump feels she does not move well and is slow. The umps feels like a line shot down the line there is no way she will be able to catch it and she will most likely get hurt. Should the ump tell the coach she can not play there?

Another scenario, A kid playing third base (no handicaps) she can barely catch the ball and is not very coordinated playing third. The ump feels a line shot down the line she will not be able to catch it. Should the ump tell the coach to move the player?

Before anybody say the scenarios are off base. Remember safety first.

 

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Ok, let me chime in here as a parent who has a child with disabilities.

I would suggest that if you do not deal with a child on a daily basis who deals with a disability that any assumptions you make are based on stereotypes and discrimination. Any parent with a disabled child is fully aware of the capabilities of that child and I would suggest that there was much consideration, over long periods of time before a decision was made to allow this kid to pitch.

There is not a person on the face of the earth that will be more concerned with the safety of a disabled child their parent. That being said not only does an umpire not have the jurisdiction of refusing a child to participate because of a disability, I would even suggest that it is illegal.

Obviously this was more than likely not her first time on the mound and I will reiterate that undoubtedly this parent and or coach have considered the risk to great lengths and come to the conclussion that is was managable.

In conclussion if this senario had happened and I was the parent of the pitcher it would not have been taken lightly. Disabled individuals have enough of an uphill battle in our society not to be discriminated against, they do not need some overpertective umpire to step in to a recreational situation and make a decision that is not his concern. My guess that in addition to the good intentions would be a question of " what happens to me IF she does get hurt."

 

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OnTheBucket:

You haven't said anything since your original post. Now that you've had your decision dissected to the Nth degree, would you change anything? I'd like to hear something from the OP.

I've been reading the posts and enjoying the spirited debate. Obviously this topic struck a chord with the knowledgeable contributors of this forum.

It seems to me that there was no perfect way to handle the situation. I, and my partner, observed what we both took to be a young player in a dangerous situation. I had not seen this situation addressed in any rulebook or casebook. It was never mentioned in my training. In my 15 years of coaching HS and travel ball I had never witnessed this situation. The situation had never been brought to my attention ahead of time by the coach, the parent or the league. There were no association members close by to quickly consult.

So, at that moment in time, these were my observations. First, the placement of her glove back on her hand was slow and clumsy and she looked down at her hand while doing so. For this young lady to pitch, she must start without her glove on her only functioning hand. To play any other position allows her to have her glove on her functioning hand. Second, she was not wearing a mask to provide some protection. (Subsequently, we were told that there had no masks available on her team. Sorry for not including that in the OP.) This indicated to me that neither the coach nor the parent were aware of, nor overly concerned with, the danger. (I know...an assumption on my part.) Third, there were girls on the opposing team who had some previous travel ball experience that I was aware of so I knew that there was the reasonable belief that hard hit balls may be hit back at a defenseless girl.

I understand that there are multiple facets to this issue. It is true that as an umpire, I would hesitate to ever tell a coach that he/she would have to move a player back in the infield just because I thought they were not as skilled as they should be. But at least they would have a glove on their hand with the reasonable belief that, since they should be watching the batter, they would have a chance to stop, deflect, or duck from a hard hit shot.

I understand that I cannot mandate that a player wear a piece of equipment, such as a mask, that is not set forth in any rules or league guidelines. Therefore, I didn't do that on that day. I also know that there is another argument entirely on the use of masks. So be it.

An additional thing to clarify, if anyone is imagining that this was some heated argument that made a spectacle of the situation you would be wrong. No one involved raised their voices and, unless you were next to the team's dugout, it may not have even been noticable to the fans on the other side. The mother was not happy but she did not yell. One poster seemed to indicate that we embarassed the young lady. I wish that that wasn't true but I have no way of knowing. I do know that my partner went out to talk to the young lady to explain why we made our decision. I do not know what she said.

Would I change anything? Given the exact situation as it happened on that day. No. I am comfortable that my, and my partner's, decision that day was in the young lady's best interest. If it happens again this year, well...our association meetings will take place shortly and I will certainly bring this up. I'd hope that we can come up with a solution that is reasonable to all involved. I absolutely want this young lady to experience the excitement and joy of fastpitch softball. If she wants to pitch, more power to her. I will be rooting for her to succeed to the fullest measure possible. But it may not be me behind the plate unless she can demonstrate that she can reasonably protect herself via a glove or a mask.
If nothing else, it gave us softball junkies something to ponder for a while!

 

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I've been reading the posts and enjoying the spirited debate. Obviously this topic struck a chord with the knowledgeable contributors of this forum.

It seems to me that there was no perfect way to handle the situation. I, and my partner, observed what we both took to be a young player in a dangerous situation. I had not seen this situation addressed in any rulebook or casebook. It was never mentioned in my training. In my 15 years of coaching HS and travel ball I had never witnessed this situation. The situation had never been brought to my attention ahead of time by the coach, the parent or the league. There were no association members close by to quickly consult.

So, at that moment in time, these were my observations. First, the placement of her glove back on her hand was slow and clumsy and she looked down at her hand while doing so. For this young lady to pitch, she must start without her glove on her only functioning hand. To play any other position allows her to have her glove on her functioning hand. Second, she was not wearing a mask to provide some protection. (Subsequently, we were told that there had no masks available on her team. Sorry for not including that in the OP.) This indicated to me that neither the coach nor the parent were aware of, nor overly concerned with, the danger. (I know...an assumption on my part.) Third, there were girls on the opposing team who had some previous travel ball experience that I was aware of so I knew that there was the reasonable belief that hard hit balls may be hit back at a defenseless girl.

I understand that there are multiple facets to this issue. It is true that as an umpire, I would hesitate to ever tell a coach that he/she would have to move a player back in the infield just because I thought they were not as skilled as they should be. But at least they would have a glove on their hand with the reasonable belief that, since they should be watching the batter, they would have a chance to stop, deflect, or duck from a hard hit shot.

I understand that I cannot mandate that a player wear a piece of equipment, such as a mask, that is not set forth in any rules or league guidelines. Therefore, I didn't do that on that day. I also know that there is another argument entirely on the use of masks. So be it.

An additional thing to clarify, if anyone is imagining that this was some heated argument that made a spectacle of the situation you would be wrong. No one involved raised their voices and, unless you were next to the team's dugout, it may not have even been noticable to the fans on the other side. The mother was not happy but she did not yell. One poster seemed to indicate that we embarassed the young lady. I wish that that wasn't true but I have no way of knowing. I do know that my partner went out to talk to the young lady to explain why we made our decision. I do not know what she said.

Would I change anything? Given the exact situation as it happened on that day. No. I am comfortable that my, and my partner's, decision that day was in the young lady's best interest. If it happens again this year, well...our association meetings will take place shortly and I will certainly bring this up. I'd hope that we can come up with a solution that is reasonable to all involved. I absolutely want this young lady to experience the excitement and joy of fastpitch softball. If she wants to pitch, more power to her. I will be rooting for her to succeed to the fullest measure possible. But it may not be me behind the plate unless she can demonstrate that she can reasonably protect herself via a glove or a mask.
If nothing else, it gave us softball junkies something to ponder for a while!

Fair enough, Well said and you make a good case. I wish the associations would require a mask and end the debate. Makes so much sense.

 

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Maybe the umpire did the girl a service...

She needs to learn right up front that she is disabled and not the same as everyone else. She needs to learn that no matter how hard she works she will not be given the same opportunities as those that may not have worked as hard as she did but are, how should I say, "complete."

Good job ump. You are definitely teaching this young lady an important life lesson.

She needs to learn that she is only half the girl that all the other girls are.

Good job...

SARCASM: I thought it important for those few that believe I am serious that this is SARCASM.

 

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You may not change your mind but it does not change the fact you step over stepped your authority. Are you going to start telling coaches they cannot play a kid in a certain position because they are too fat, to slow to uncoordinated? Remember you said it was all about safety and according to you if you do not think they can reasonable protect themselves are you not obligated to tell the coach to move them?

As far as the mask goes, is there a rule saying you have to wear one? If not it, it does not matter if you agree or not. And if you need any other confirmation you over stepped your authority this from your original post:

Mom contacted our association the next day and we were told by our president that we should have let her pitch. There was nothing in the rules or guidelines that prevented her from doing so and that we had no authority to stop her if both the coach and mother agreed to put her in the circle.

 

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I'd rather err on the side of safety.

 

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Let her pitch!! People (as closed minded as you were in this situation) would allow a lot of extremely intelligent people to be locked away in mental institutions and forgotten. People with disabilities should be allowed to tackle any obstacle. I could go on about Inclusion in schools and other practices that simple minded people think are just plain wrong, but I think you failed miserably in this situation, and could have very well been taken to court for rights violations if the mother choose to pursue it.

 

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Make the parents read and watch these if they decide to sue, they may end up giving you a medal.

Story 1
Story 2
Video 1
Video 2
Video 3

 

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Well said, Knights.

IMO, a timeout and quick private conversation with the parent/guardian to make sure they are fully aware of the risks - period. You might be surprised, maybe not. Right or wrong, safe or not, without a law or league rule, the parent is the only individual who should make this call. Those who disagree, I suggest call Children's Services and report the abusive parent.

As the situation was described, the decision seemed at the time like the correct one. However, the next pitcher with two perfect hands and cat-like reflexes could have been knocked unconscious by a line drive. The girl you moved to the outfield could trip in a hole and break her ankle.

My point is that it is sometimes difficult to respect the methods of other parents, and how they choose to raise their kids. When those parenting methods break laws that were intended to protect children is when you should clearly intervene.

 

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Make the parents read and watch these if they decide to sue, they may end up giving you a medal.

Story 1
Story 2
Video 1
Video 2
Video 3

Thanks for posting.... will make me sleep even better knowing the mask mandates that we did 5 years ago.

 

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Yeah, I agree with Louuuuuu that it's the parents' job to make that decision, but I don't blame you. We never know what situations we'll be confronted with and having to make snap decisions on something unexpected is much more difficult than being able to read a situation on here, then think about it, and make a call.

The Penn State assistant, McCreary, had the ultimate situation like that when he discovered Sandusky in the shower with the boy. It's easy for all of us to say exactly what we would have done, but I have some sympathy for McCreary.

I DONT and neither should anyone else!

 

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Until the rules require all Pitchers to wear a mask then the umpire has no right to require only handicapped players to wear one, or slow players, or unskilled players or .... anyone he randomly thinks should have a mask.

The ball will come back through the box so fast that an able player cannot react to protect herself as witnessed by 3d's posting. Certainly a player attempting to put her glove back on will have to learn other means to protect herself such as diving out of the way. This is probably better learned at 14U rec than at 18U travel.

I guarantee this girl, her parents and her coach had thought long and hard about this. I am sure that this umpiring crew was not the only one that told her she couldn't do it, shouldn't do it and wouldn't be able to do it. It took tremendous courage for her to attempt to pitch.

The umpire can not make up rules and has no right to do so. If you want ALL pitchers to wear a mask then propose the rule, have the sponsoring/sanctioning body adopt it and then enforce it on all players equally. This is blatant discrimination.

I agree with 'Lady Knghts' LET HER PITCH

 

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Until the rules require all Pitchers to wear a mask then the umpire has no right to require only handicapped players to wear one, or slow players, or unskilled players or .... anyone he randomly thinks should have a mask.

The ball will come back through the box so fast that an able player cannot react to protect herself as witnessed by 3d's posting. Certainly a player attempting to put her glove back on will have to learn other means to protect herself such as diving out of the way. This is probably better learned at 14U rec than at 18U travel.

I guarantee this girl, her parents and her coach had thought long and hard about this. I am sure that this umpiring crew was not the only one that told her she couldn't do it, shouldn't do it and wouldn't be able to do it. It took tremendous courage for her to attempt to pitch.

The umpire can not make up rules and has no right to do so. If you want ALL pitchers to wear a mask then propose the rule, have the sponsoring/sanctioning body adopt it and then enforce it on all players equally. This is blatant discrimination.

I agree with 'Lady Knghts' LET HER PITCH

I think the umpire was technically wrong with his decision, but right in the decision of common sense. How could a mom , coach, and herself think long and hard about it , and come up with the answer that this was safe and ok? I don't think they thought long and hard about it at all. You can call it discrimination and it probably was, but I can honestly say I am not so sure I wouldn't make the same call, especially if I thought she was in danger. How bad did they really want her to pitch anyway? Just put the mask on , whether it was a rule or not, the umpire obviously has the last say so, I know if I wanted to pitch that badly , and the umpire said I had to do this in order to pitch, I would have done it. Right or wrong, we can discuss it more after the game or whenever, but at that moment, I would have put it on just so I could have pitched. They could have made phone calls right then and been made to strictly go by the rules, in which she would have been able to pitch without the mask (dumb)! If the girl gets hit after that, the responsibility would fall on the parents, coach, and pitcher. Everyone always wants to throw out the discrimination card, when sometimes a thank you might be in order instead. Tough call, but by the rulebook, he was wrong, but by the rule book inside of him, he was in his mind, right. Wouldn't want to be in that situation, and would never want to hurt anyone or tell someone they can't do something, especially if they are handicapped, but can't all of us use a little more common sense?

 

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Tough call.. I had a similar situation a few years back where I was coaching a High School player playing outfield with a catchers chest protecter because of Heart Surgery and the opposing team complained stating it was a distraction and the umpire requested she take off the chest protecter..

Where does it stop? If a player physically looks like she has limited athletic ability do you remove her from the game?

I hope not... the player and parent are a critical part of the equation and there wishes should take precedence...

 

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If this was a safety issue, you would only allow pitchers to pitch that wore a mask. This is a civil rights issue since you only require handicapped players to wear a mask.


Coach Dennis: A player has the right to wear required medical equipment such as a brace or a medic-alert bracelet and no umpire in his right mind would force a player to remove it. Hopefully the umpire did not insist on removing the chest protector.