Hitting and Hitters Discussion Swings for review

default · Nov 7, 2009

Dana and go4fpsb

I think we're seeing things a bit differently. When BD's dd is in the box she is standing straight up. However, she does sink (bend at waist and soft knees) when it's time to hit. This is evident by using the fence behind her as a reference point and watching her head change levels. It also appears that she is tilted slightly towards home plate by bending at the waist. This is exactly what Bustos does. Crystl is totally upright and relaxed in the box until it is time to get serious and hit. One instance is around the 43 second mark of this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XcLqUAVVoA

I froze the video and took a ruler and measured BD's dd's stance between the inside of her feet and it is wider than her shoulder width, proving a solid athletic stance. In other words, her feet are not under her, they are flanking her. Dana, her toes seem to me to be pointed directly towards the side of the plate, do you teach your students to be more pigeon-toed? I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just asking the question because I have seen it many times before.
If you watch Britt's swing closely, you will see that her swing plane is at a slight upward angle at contact. Proof is at or around 0:25, 0:57, and 1:48. Better yet, I understand Akadema was the brave soul pitching to Britt for this video clip and maybe he can tell us how she hit. However, an upward swing doesn't necessarily mean a line drive. It all depends on where the ball hits on the bat regardless of the swing plane. All we can teach is to keep the bat head on the plane of the ball for as long as possible, and since most pitches are moving slightly downward as the ball gets closer to the batter, a slightly upward swing mirrors the path of the ball.

Dana, I agree concerning Britt's elbow. It is up at contact and she is very well connected. This is evident at the times listed above. She clears her rib cage like a champ.

Go4fpsb, the elbow drop you mention appears to be Britt aligning her knocking knuckles before she fires her front elbow. Most hitters that start with a staggered grip slowly end up with knuckle alignment at contact. Britt gets hers over with early. As I stated in an earlier post she does flirt with bat drag using this method but she fires her front elbow just in time to avoid it, keeping her swing connected. As far as maintaining the box longer, many bashers like Bustos and Pujoles do not maintain a box throughout their entire swing because their front arm bars a bit at the beginning of the swing. However, at contact the box reappears and all is well. Britt is boxed at impact: Front elbow above hands, hands above barrel, and hands inside and behind bat.

Len

default · Nov 7, 2009

This is exactly what Bustos does. Crystl is totally upright and relaxed in the box until it is time to get serious and hit. One instance is around the 43 second mark of this clip:

Len great review! CB calls this her ready position and set position...She has measured off and drawn her lines and simply stands there ready. She points out many pitchers will go through their theatrics in preparation to throw so do not get set too soon. When the hands come together and she starts her swing she sets or bends at waist, then softens the knees and sinks to load verses the traditional knee cock or leaning backwards. She tells the kids at the clinics this takes more athleticism to make this move so it may not be for everyone however it works for her.

Howard

default · Nov 7, 2009

Len,

I do teach hitters to turn the toes in at the plate. The reason behind this is they will be able to rotate the hips further when they swing. Try it for yourself and you can feel the difference. Most young hitters dont know how to rotate properly so this helps them feel it.

As for Britts posture. I am not a big fan of standing straight up. I want to create a vertical load of the back, glutes, hamstrings, and calf muscles in my set up. (Think Linebacker stance) To do that I must tilt my setup. This is an athletic position. It creates tension in the major muscle groups of the body. That tension stores energy. That energy is released during the unloading of the swing if done in the proper sequence. (Key point)

The tilt also establishes the swing plane of the bat so that when I come through the long zone my swing plane will be on a upward path at contact. If I make solid contact then I get the desired result. A rising line drive.

The tilt also allows the hitter to adjust the level of the bat to the ball quicker on those pitches that are low and away. If you can get the hitter to stay connected and rotate as needed (Howards term) then they will hit the ball much harder to the opposite field.

The best example I could give you on that right now would be A-rod. He is the most dangerous hitter in MLB if you pitch him away. He will tilt over stay connected and drive it over the right field fence on you. No reason that cant be taught to a softball player and I have seen it many times. Not only from Crystal but many other high level hitters.

Brit is a strong young lady. I think with a few adjustments on her posture she could become a very dangerous young lady. Dangerous is always good. Just ask Howard.

default · Nov 7, 2009

Ok here we go , lets see if I can put all this together and it make sense. some great comments and alot that has made me think and re think to see if I have missed something . sometimes being the dad as well as the instructor can put you a bit close and cloud your honest vision..... .
What i did was find one of the Vids that shows who her swing has been modeled after and I found the one I wanted its
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XcLqUAVVoA

The front elbow is as good a place as any to start. if you,ll look at the clip and at second mark 20/21 youll see her front elbow is in a natural V not up nor down in a very comfortable spot. and the more i studied her elbow it was in the same place almost every time.
Standing Tall,,,, in time mark 46/47, 133, 138, 144, 150, 158 , she is standing tall and stays natural and comfortable within herself until its time to go to work, then she gets in her athletic position and does that voodoo that she do so well.
Back elbow firing before the front or bat lag....... in mark 216 the swing all comes together and if you study her back elbow when it fires a tad before or the same as the front,,,,,,,, I,ll bet if you slowed that swing down youd find alot of simularities to that time mark and the mark in britts vid where her elbow drops in the slot.
Pigeon toed feet...... I watched that vid alot,,,,,, not once did i see anythnig that resembled that..... her toes for the most part were balanced with the weight on the inside of the feet. and to be honest I cant understand how if you have a hitter thats toed in alot how they can dance with the pitcher,,,,,,and adjust to the different speeds and planes of pitches.
I think that about covers it. and again I want to thank everyone that responded and had the courage to place their kids vid on here for public diasection...... maybe in the furure, the hitting instructors would be so kind as to place vids of their best students or their kids and show us in video what they try to tell us in type,,,,,,,,, would be interesting to say the least

Tim

default · Nov 8, 2009

Ok here we go , lets see if I can put all this together and it make sense. some great comments and alot that has made me think and re think to see if I have missed something . sometimes being the dad as well as the instructor can put you a bit close and cloud your honest vision..... .
What i did was find one of the Vids that shows who her swing has been modeled after and I found the one I wanted its
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XcLqUAVVoA

Tim totally agree....and it can be taught and you have seen it!

In my opinion most men's coaches/ instructors can not get the girls to understand the balance or weight shift well enough to get the hitter to feel what it is they are teaching....you have heard it yourself when a male coach tells the hitter to stand taller in the box and I have never seen a woman stand tall and be a successful hitter and I am not saying at the ready position however at toe touch as how they start is not relevant and you only need to look at CB....if you have her athleticism! Otherwise keep it simple and bend at the waist and soften the knees.

default · Nov 9, 2009

Hitter said:
Tim totally agree....and it can be taught and you have seen it!

In my opinion most men's coaches/ instructors can not get the girls to understand the balance or weight shift well enough to get the hitter to feel what it is they are teaching....you have heard it yourself when a male coach tells the hitter to stand taller in the box and I have never seen a woman stand tall and be a successful hitter and I am not saying at the ready position however at toe touch as how they start is not relevant and you only need to look at CB....if you have her athleticism! Otherwise keep it simple and bend at the waist and soften the knees.

Howard
Is it really a function of athleticism or is it making sure not to lock your muscles in either a partially expanded or contracted state for too long?

When I played I was totally upright with my bat handle laying on my shoulder at the base of my neck and my hands directly under my ear. Once the pitcher started their full windup or got to the set position from the stretch is when I would sink and get ready to hit. I did this so I was not frozen for too long in my batting stance. If you are frozen in a sunk postion for too long (3 seconds or more) your chances of hitting the ball reduce dramatically. That is why you see so many MLB players ask for time if the pitcher is taking longer than 3 seconds between getting set and pitching the ball or taking too long to receive the sign from the catcher.

Len

default · Nov 9, 2009

Lenski said:
Howard
Is it really a function of athleticism or is it making sure not to lock your muscles in either a partially expanded or contracted state for too long?

When I played I was totally upright with my bat handle laying on my shoulder at the base of my neck and my hands directly under my ear. Once the pitcher started their full windup or got to the set position from the stretch is when I would sink and get ready to hit. I did this so I was not frozen for too long in my batting stance. If you are frozen in a sunk postion for too long (3 seconds or more) your chances of hitting the ball reduce dramatically. That is why you see so many MLB players ask for time if the pitcher is taking longer than 3 seconds between getting set and pitching the ball or taking too long to receive the sign from the catcher.

Len

Len that is why we distinguish the difference in the ready position verses the set position.

At the ready position I have got into the box and measured off drawn my lines looked over the defensive positioning and you just relax and wait for the pitcher to get their sign and start to pitch....stay relaxed.

In the set position when we see the pitcher begin their motion we bend at the waist and soften the knees, get a good two eyed look, tap the back of the helmet to set the bat angle to attack the ball and flow to it.

It takes more athleticism to do the sinking move in my opinion. This is why I teach a simple a simple knee cock or angle the knee under you a little to shift your weight especially with the younger ones in my opinion and dance with the pitcher. To teach the weight shift I actually have them stand with their shoulder against the wall and their feet directly under them. Then I ask them to pick up the foot that is not by the wall and they can not do it because they can not shift their weight to the other foot. Then while standing in front of a mirror they can see the difference in leaning backwards verses shifting their weight backwards with their head moving and the weight being over the back leg verses inside the back leg. I then stand in front of the lead shoulder and after they do a knee cock I hold/ brace their shoulder and they pick up their lead foot and I am holding their weight and they can feel the weight on the inside of the back leg. If not done correctly I can hold them with one hand as the weight is over the back leg.

My point with most male coaches is that we balance differently than the females because the base of the spine in a male tilts slightly forward and in a female it is almost horizontal. The female can not be as balanced as a male when the are more up right. Chipper Jones stands taller in the box and Manny chooses to be like a female in posture more than Chipper and that is style verses mechanics. The female must be bent at the waist more as this is a design feature from the almighty so during pregnancy their spine can accommodate the additional 30 to 40 pound increase and be balanced. Many male coaches just scream "stand taller" and do so because that is how we do it without the knowledge and understanding that they are truly different. Look at how rigid the female is with the front leg knee and again it is a design feature and function however it can be taught.

Howard

default · Nov 11, 2009

bouldersdad said:
Maybe in the furure, the hitting instructors would be so kind as to place vids of their best students or their kids and show us in video what they try to tell us in type,,,,,,,,, would be interesting to say the least

Tim

This is one of my students. Her name is Kelly. She has been with me almost 3 years on a consistent basis. This swing was back in Feb of 09 during one of her games. She got an outside pitch, tilted over, stayed connected, and drove it hard to RF.

Notice the set up. Toes turned in and tilted to create the vertical load I stated in my previous post to Len. Also notice that she is doing the soft toe touch flex the knee that Howard often talks about on here.

Kelly weighs all of about 110 soaking wet and regularly drives the ball to the fence. She is 14 years old. She just missed her first HR this past summer. She has been on the shelf for the last 4 months due to an ankle deformity that required surgery. She just started playing again last week and her return to the field with the bat was very good. 14 At bats. 468 ave with an OBP of 538. Not too much power as she is still knocking the rust off from the long layoff. She hits lead off for her team. She will start her freshman season of HS ball this spring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA4ocjgumAU

Dana

default · Nov 11, 2009

Thanks for posting a clip........... if she hits that well the system you teach works for her, congrats and nice job.
The toe in can be a tool to help them keep the weight on the inside of the feet... I can live with that. as they get older at 16 and 18 I think they will find their own comfort zone and the toe in will not have to be as exaturated (spelling).
You and I discussed elbow position in pm,,,,,,, heres the reason I dont care for the elbows being high. if you notice her front shoulder its up in her chin.. if her elbow were to drop a little it would probably draw the shoulder down enough that it would be a little more comfortable. The back elbow is way up and to me it takes longer for that to come thru the slot. just a longer distance to travel .... again personal preference. the front elbow if it starts high has no where elso to go but up..... its hard to drive it forward and up if it is already there.......
shes not a big kid but has good contact, I cant slow u tube down enough to see her at contact but looks like she stays connected real well..... the biggest difference is size of the hitter,,,,,, she has to lean more into the plate to get that outside pitch because of her size......... britt being 6 foot probably has almost twice her wing span.Softball being a game of inches,,,,,, it makes a difference.
All in all very nice swing, I bet if you view her in slo mo at contact they are very simular,,,,, we both get them where they need to be, just a little different approach on a few items. again nice job

Tim

default · Nov 11, 2009

bouldersdad said:
Thanks for posting a clip........... if she hits that well the system you teach works for her, congrats and nice job.
The toe in can be a tool to help them keep the weight on the inside of the feet... I can live with that. as they get older at 16 and 18 I think they will find their own comfort zone and the toe in will not have to be as exaturated (spelling).

Tim thank you for the kind words. Actually I wont let them change that as they get older. My reason for that is I want my hitters to load the back hip against that turned in leg/foot. This gives them the feeling of loading the pelvic region and the inner leg. They will feel the glute tighten as they turn the lower body. That is the key to getting them to load the lower half from the waist down. Turning the front toe in will often prevent them from flying the foot out to an open position at and during heel plant.

You and I discussed elbow position in pm,,,,,,, heres the reason I dont care for the elbows being high. if you notice her front shoulder its up in her chin.. if her elbow were to drop a little it would probably draw the shoulder down enough that it would be a little more comfortable.

I tell all my students going in "This is not about your comfort. This is about learning to hit a ball hard" I am not concerned about comfort. I am concerned about feeling the correct amount of tension in the correct parts of the body to unload on the ball.

This guy keeps his arms high.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hopwbAC_6Z0

But I agree with you its a personal preference. Not sure I buy into the longer distance to travel only because the elbows must move together in synchronicity. Up or down. My problem with down is that the back elbow will often drop too quick and end up in front of the hand creating bat drag on young hitters. I dont see Alberts front elbow going up. I see it going forward. But that is my perception of his swing.

The back elbow is way up and to me it takes longer for that to come thru the slot. just a longer distance to travel .... again personal preference. the front elbow if it starts high has no where elso to go but up..... its hard to drive it forward and up if it is already there.......
shes not a big kid but has good contact, I cant slow u tube down enough to see her at contact but looks like she stays connected real well..... the biggest difference is size of the hitter,,,,,, she has to lean more into the plate to get that outside pitch because of her size......... britt being 6 foot probably has almost twice her wing span.Softball being a game of inches,,,,,, it makes a difference.

You are correct. Size of the hitter makes a huge difference. I would be putting a 34 inch bat in your DDs hands if its not that big already and then think about going bigger when she gets to college.

All in all very nice swing, I bet if you view her in slo mo at contact they are very simular,,,,, we both get them where they need to be, just a little different approach on a few items. again nice job

Agreed and thank you again.

Tim

Tim my response is in the quote. I used the multi quote thing but I obvously dont know how it works.

default · Nov 11, 2009

LOL the response was fine..... I understood it...... yes the bat she uses is a 34/25 end loaded bat. anything less in legnth and weight seems to FUBAR her hand path......
OK gents its time for the rest of the dads and instructors.....lets see them vids.lol

Tim

default · Nov 13, 2009

Dana

Where was your student playing in February?

Len

default · Nov 13, 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oe6C_G5AfA
_________________
This is pretty much a perfect swing. The thing I see her do that most kids do not do is with her hands BEFORE the swing actually starts. I learned this very thing from Pete Rose as a 14 year old. Your hands need to stay in the exact same place as your body slides a little forward starting your weight shift.. This automatically loads the hands toward the back shoulder. I am wondering if she was taught this or if this was natural in her swing.
In my opinion many very good hitters are naturals. DD`s swing was pretty much same as a 4 year old swinging a wiffle bat as it was as a senior in college.

default · Nov 13, 2009

punchout said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oe6C_G5AfA
_________________
This is pretty much a perfect swing. The thing I see her do that most kids do not do is with her hands BEFORE the swing actually starts. I learned this very thing from Pete Rose as a 14 year old. Your hands need to stay in the exact same place as your body slides a little forward starting your weight shift.. This automatically loads the hands toward the back shoulder. I am wondering if she was taught this or if this was natural in her swing.
In my opinion many very good hitters are naturals. DD`s swing was pretty much same as a 4 year old swinging a wiffle bat as it was as a senior in college.

punchout welcome to OFC , ty for the compliment on her swing....it was a taught movement , we call it hand seperation,,,,, it is almost an optical illusion, as she goes to toe touch and the body transfers weight forward the hands slide back away from the front foot..to coil almost as a spring would do before it releases its tension.......... but yes i agree with the natural ability part...her swing has looked pretty much the same since she was younger

Tim

default · Nov 14, 2009

Len,

Texas.

We play year around down here for the most part. The HS season starts Feb 6th and runs for 3 months. The select season goes from Mid Feb for non HS players to early December whe the Toys for tots tournaments indicate the end of the season.

Dana.

default · Nov 19, 2009

Some great swings all around. How about some cheer for the smallball ladies out there. Let's see some slap/drag swings.

default · Nov 19, 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp1JwUj-3gM
Here's a swing to look at. This is my youngest DD this past season with the Lasers Gold . We were a 12u team playin up at 14u. She had just turned 13 and this was her 1st homerun on a field that had a fence at 200'. She ended up hitting another out later that season when we played up at 16u in Marysville, unfortunately no video rolling on that one! Let me know what you all think of the swing.

default · Nov 19, 2009

Nice swing. I saw her keep good connection while getting into good a bat lag position. She probably could have come off of the backside a little more for even more power, but overall an excellent swing.

default · Nov 19, 2009

Yup good swing............ shes like a pup growin into her paws,,,,,,,,,,,, shes gonna be a hammer when she grows into her swing

default · Nov 20, 2009

Golfnut

Your dd has a very nice swing. The pitch she hit was high and outside and she didn't even hit it on the sweetest part of the bat, yet was strong enough to go yard with it. She is well connected, great tilt, up on her rear toe and weight shifted, firm front leg at impact, great head position, hands slightly above ball, and hips coming through.

I have only one suggestion. FINISH THE SWING!!!!!

OMG, if your dd would finish her swing, crushes like this would be commonplace for her. Right after impact, she collapses and rolls her wrists and stops her hips. She does not get to extention. The only way to do this is to hold back on the swing a bit, stopping the shoulders and hips once contact is made. Golfnut, she is going to the ball, not through the ball. Everything else is so excellent about this swing. It really is. It is a thing of beauty all the way to impact. Go through the ball. Extend and finish. Do that and she will have a picture perfect swing and an insane slugging percentage.

Len

Hitting and Hitters Discussion Swings for review

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