Pitching and Pitchers Discussion Illegal Pitches/Pitching

In the Dayton tournament two weeks ago, we had a newly certified ASA umpire who did not understand illegal pitches and/or call illegal pitches even after I educated him on illegal pitching. It was absolutely frustrating. Regardless of new or experienced, I understand umpires are often times to give the benefit of the doubt to the pitcher, especially in younger age groups. But as a long time pitcher and pitching coach, I can't help but disagree. All pitchers, specifically the young ones, need to learn proper mechanics early on. Once muscle memory sets in, those bad habits are incredibly difficult to break. In my opinion, the umpires do pitchers a disservice by not calling illegal pitches. Girls need to learn the proper, legal way to pitch.

Thoughts?

ChixCoach said:

In the Dayton tournament two weeks ago, we had a newly certified ASA umpire who did not understand illegal pitches and/or call illegal pitches even after I educated him on illegal pitching. It was absolutely frustrating. Regardless of new or experienced, I understand umpires are often times to give the benefit of the doubt to the pitcher, especially in younger age groups. But as a long time pitcher and pitching coach, I can't help but disagree. All pitchers, specifically the young ones, need to learn proper mechanics early on. Once muscle memory sets in, those bad habits are incredibly difficult to break. In my opinion, the umpires do pitchers a disservice by not calling illegal pitches. Girls need to learn the proper, legal way to pitch.

Thoughts?

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I agree. I do believe that umpires/coaches/parents, at the very least, should correct the kids at 10u on up!! Now, I don't necessarily think that the penalty should be given at 10u, but they should be at least talking to the people (parents) who can make sure it is corrected for 12u and up. At 12u and up I believe the illegal pitch should be called and penalty enforced (after one warning). Otherwise, the pitchers have no reason to correct it! IMHO ;&

Another problem is some coaches don't even know what a leap is and that it is illegal. We had coach contact one of our coaches a Monday after tournement and threaten coach because coach asked umpire about illegal pitches with there pitcher. Kinda Crazy that a coach would act like that. I would say instead of threatening coach teach them right.


NEWS FLASH

***** When your foot comes off the rubber into the air with out dragging toe and lands a couple feet in front of rubber that is a leap *******

*****NO...It's a Leap***** Just for clarification.

thanks

Prepare to continue the frustration... these pitches... replanting.. in effect shortening the mound by 2 feet... arent called at high school state tournament finals.... the rule needs to either be clarified and enforced.. or just dropped.....

I am also seeing to me a more disturbing trend of illegal pitching concerning replant. What I am seeing is the player doing a higher kick, more or less scootch their back foot off the pitchers plate several inches then pushing again. This is illegal and unlike a leap with the drag foot losing contact with the ground this illegal pitch DOES give the pitcher great advantage in power. Even though ASA provided training videos of this technique I have never seen and umpire call it. I know for certain at least one popular pitching coach is now teaching this knowing it will not be called. I spoke to an umpire about it and he told me that no 12 year old could do it. I took my youngest and showed them one time and she was able to do it for the umpire on the 2nd try. I expect the leap to get taken out of the rules in the future since there isnt a clear advantage but I expect replanting to become more and more popular.

While I don't have any studies to prove it, I do believe leaping DOES give an advantage by increasing the speed of the pitch. Should be called, usually isn't.

Leaping, replanting, regardless, needs to be stopped at 10U and enforced at 12U.

I don't believe that leaping adds an advantage to a pitcher. Crow hops certainly do but not leaping. As a matter of fact, when my daugther leaps her pitches are slower. I feel this is due to her pushing up instead of pushing towards the catcher. When all of her momentum is used to push towards the catcher (and she subsequently is less likely to leap), she pitches much faster and better.

I found this interesting. This is according to www.pitchsoftball.com:

"LEAPING" - an unnecessary rule​

The NCAA's clampdown on illegal pitches has drawn attention to the rule in the NCAA, ASA, USSSA, NAFA, NFHSA, etc. rulebooks that require a pitcher to drag the toe of their pushoff/pivot foot to avoid being called for "leaping" (being airborne...having both feet in the air at the same time) . The toe drag/ leaping violation is not to be confused with the "crow hop"...stepping or hopping forward with the pushoff/pivot foot to establish a new pushoff point in front of the pitching rubber.
if a rule is important enough to be in the rulebook, it needs to be enforced...consistently. It should not be unnoticed or ignored in one game, and then enforced in another. Pitchers should comply with rules.
A rule needs to be in place to make certain that a pitcher does not get an unfair advantage over a batter or other pitchers. However, having both feet in the air during the pitching sequence does NOT give a pitcher an advantage over one who follows the rule and drags her toe until her landing foot touches down.
The ASA (Amateur Softball Association) rules are different for females vs. males. Men can leap, women cannot:

- (Women?s and all JO Play) Pushing off and dragging the pivot foot in contact with the ground is required. If a hole has been created, the pivot foot may drag no higher than the level plane of the ground.


- (Men?s) Pushing off and dragging the pivot foot in contact with the ground, or if both feet are in the air, having the toes of the pivot foot in the downward direction is required.

Certainly, dragging wears out cleats and results in the sale of new pitching shoes to hundreds of thousands of girl pitchers' parents each year. However, neither dragging nor leaping-without-dragging do not help or hamper a pitcher's effectiveness or alter the outcome of the game.
A crow hop can give a pitcher an unfair advantage, and that rule should be kept in place.
The leaping rule is unnecessary and should be substantially modified or eliminated.

Where did you get that article from a leapers parent ???

Seems to me if you legalize the leap, your inviting the replant.... Keep the toe on the ground and it stays simple.

Tighten up whatever it takes for an umpire to get certified so that they have to be able to recognize what is legal and what is not. Absolutely amazes me that an umpire can be "certified" and be getting paid to officiate games and not know the rule. I understand there are a lot of things for the field ump to watch so they can't watch for it every pitch, but we've all seen girls who do it every delivery. Warn them at 10U, start calling it after a warning at 12U, call it immediately at 14U and up.

TnTs_Dad said:

Seems to me if you legalize the leap, your inviting the replant.... Keep the toe on the ground and it stays simple.....

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Is it really that simple for an umpire, what does the rule really state? What if there is a 3 inch hole in front of the pitcher's plate. Is the pitcher require to drag her toe down the gouge to be legal. Leaping can be subjective just like safe or out calls, especially if there is a raised rubber with a big hole in front of it.

Also, with regard to the "teach them right" mantra, not every coach is a pitching coach. Girls change teams every year and it's not as easy as it sounds. If you ask me, NOBODY in Ohio apparently knows what they are doing because we don't put very many kids on top level DI teams. If we were all as good as we thought we were we would compete every year with Cali, Arizona, Texas, etc. but we don't. If you think you know it all, chances are you don't know squat. I think most coaches know what is legal and what isn't, but I have yet to find that magic wand that makes a kid quit leaping, or start hitting, or quit making errors. It just takes time, repitition and practice. Just like this current crop of kids have no issues wearing face masks, the next crop of kids will probably have less issues with leaping because it will be enforced more tightly. You just can't flip a switch on all these girls and expect them to change their ways in a weekend. Look at Zona's pitcher, she is at the highest level of college ball and had issues. I agree, It is illegal by the book and we ALL need to do our part in fixing any leapers or replanters we have but it aint gonna be overnight.

take'em back to 45' and legalize everything (Leaping, crop-hop, replanting..). It's simple to inforce and the added footage would make reactiion time for the pitchers better. Just a thought...

By the time a kid gets to college, she isn't going to re-invent her pitching motion. It's ingrained, and if she's a replant type pitcher, she ain't gonna change. I must say that having Lisa Fernandez as your college pitching coach must be an awesome gig! But I seriously doubt she would even consider working with a replant type pitcher.

The majority of kids who are serious about becoming a college pitcher will have a dedicated pitching instructor, who is not necessarily their travel team coach. Problems start when dad starts teaching his DD to pitch, when he has no idea how it should be done. The really lucky kids are the ones who DO get a qualified pitching instructor who just happens to be their team coach.

I remember buying several of the Ernie Parker videos when my DD was starting out. If a kid is taught his techniques, it's guaranteed she won't replant. I'm not necessarily endorsing everything he teaches, but he does teach solid LEGAL mechanics. Show me a chronic replanting pitcher, and I'll show you an unfortunate case of a "daddy pitching coach", or no pitching coach at all. Most have NO CLUE how much time should be spent learning to pitch legally. If your DD is replanting, WHY ON EARTH would any parent continue with the same type of instruction??? Baffling!

Pitching hardships: Holes, rain, cold weather... all are a part of learning to pitch - just like learning spins, arm speed, timing, etc. A great pitcher looks at hardships as an advantage over their opponent. If a pitcher knows how to pitch in the rain with TWO 5" holes, and her opposing pitcher doesn't, she has a HUGE advantage. While the other pitcher (and coach) are crying about how bad things are, the trained, seasoned pitcher is going about her business just like any other day.

Changing teams is like changing cars. You already know how to drive, what does the new car have to do with changing your driving skills? If you're using a dedicated pitching coach (or hitting coach) you can go to ANY team - and your skill set follows you. Just as in college, kids make the Laser, Stingrays, Wolfpack, (fill in the team) because they ALREADY have developed their skill set to an age appropriate level, or have the athletic potential to do so.

crosscountycannons said:

take'em back to 45' and legalize everything (Leaping, crop-hop, replanting..). It's simple to inforce and the added footage would make reactiion time for the pitchers better. Just a thought...

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I don't know about that....I think the extra 3 feet (or 5 in hs/travel) would do more for the hitter than for the pitcher...I think that it would only be bad for pitchers...increased chance of ball getting hit harder at them, majorly mess up their movement, and not give very much extra reaction time at all...
I don't understand the difference between 'leaping' and 'replanting'.
Seems to me that leaping is first, then the replant, then throw the ball. I don't understand how they don't go hand in hand...
I also think that many pitchers do things just to see if they can get away with it. If they think leaping/replanting will help them, then they will leap/replant until they're told not to by an umpire...and most times nobody says anything. Then, they'll start right back up in the next game. Why so many college pitchers are still doing it..
That's how it seems to me at least...

Gameface said:

...I don't understand the difference between 'leaping' and 'replanting'. Seems to me that leaping is first, then the replant, then throw the ball. I don't understand how they don't go hand in hand...

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Leap: Both feet are in the air at the same time. PERIOD.

Replant: The pivot foot pushes off the pitching plate, then replants and pushes a second time.

They are two totally separate actions. For instance, a pitcher may LEAP (both feet in the air) - BUT, she may land on her stride (front) foot first, without replanting the pivot foot.

IMO, the leap will soon become a legal part of women's fastpitch, but the replant will not. And unfortunately the replant is epidemic (and rarely called as illegal) in Ohio travel ball. We'll see about this summer...

Please please please!! I saw a girl last night that replanted EVERY pitch.