default
Member
MD, you are getting dangerously close to being lumped into the useless-info-posters category. It was rather amusing to see Bret Man swoop right in after you flipped on the spotlight. ;D
default
Member
Hi Howard,
We both agree that this is hard to see while focusing on the strike zone/pitch location- and keeping your fourth, fifth and sixth eye out for a hit batter, catcher obstruction, runner violations, etcetera, etcetera...
Line or no line, the bottom line boils down to judgment. You can only hope that the umpire is using his best possible judgment and has some accurate idea of where the front of the box really should be. Same as with the illegal pitches, you don't want to "guess" at a call. Given the difficulty at seeing this infraction, you need to be extra, extra sure about what you see and when to call it. In that regard, if the violation is borderline, give the benefit of the doubt to the batter.
Upper level clinics that I have attended tell the umpires not to draw their own lines in the dirt for batter's boxes, foul lines or any other mis-marked lines. Address those before the game starts, wipe them out if they're wrong or correct them if possible, then use your judgment to make the calls.
We both agree that this is hard to see while focusing on the strike zone/pitch location- and keeping your fourth, fifth and sixth eye out for a hit batter, catcher obstruction, runner violations, etcetera, etcetera...
Line or no line, the bottom line boils down to judgment. You can only hope that the umpire is using his best possible judgment and has some accurate idea of where the front of the box really should be. Same as with the illegal pitches, you don't want to "guess" at a call. Given the difficulty at seeing this infraction, you need to be extra, extra sure about what you see and when to call it. In that regard, if the violation is borderline, give the benefit of the doubt to the batter.
Upper level clinics that I have attended tell the umpires not to draw their own lines in the dirt for batter's boxes, foul lines or any other mis-marked lines. Address those before the game starts, wipe them out if they're wrong or correct them if possible, then use your judgment to make the calls.
default
Member
Bretman I don't think I have ever met you however I like the way you think and how you describe why you think that way and your resaon and logic.
The mind games some of the coaches play by not marking a regualtion batters box and then waiting until the other team appears to have gained an advantage and then it becomes an issue amazes me.
When going over ground rules does it ever come up or do you discuss it with the coaches for example; coaches we all agree there is no marked batters box so it will be soley my judgement on where the batters position is in or out of the box.
Again thank you for your candid reply.
Howard
The mind games some of the coaches play by not marking a regualtion batters box and then waiting until the other team appears to have gained an advantage and then it becomes an issue amazes me.
When going over ground rules does it ever come up or do you discuss it with the coaches for example; coaches we all agree there is no marked batters box so it will be soley my judgement on where the batters position is in or out of the box.
Again thank you for your candid reply.
Howard
default
Member
All goods questions, Howard. I'll try to give you some good answers! ?
Before the game, If I see any lines incorrectly marked I will bring it to the attention of the coaches. Then we either fix it, if time allows and the equipment is there to do it right, or wipe out the line altogether if it can't be fixed. Either one of those will usually solve any problems with a small area like the batter's box.
I've had cases where the entire foul lines were marked wrong, either coming from the front corner of the plate, instead of the point, extending to the inside of the bags, instead of the outside, or just so darn crooked they look like a West Virginia highway! If there is no time to re-do them, I'll tell the coaches that I'm ignoring the marked lines and using my own judgment to line up fair/foul balls.
My pre-game plate conferences are pretty much by-the-book: An introduction of myself and my partner to the coaches; Give me your line-ups and we'll review them real quick before they become "official"; A quick rundown of the ground rules; A reminder to the coaches about their players being properly equipped; Any questions?; Have a good game!
I don't go into any "what-ifs", mini-rule clinics, explanations on my judgment or special warnings before the game. The exception might be if, at the end of the meeting, a coach has a question about a certain rule or situation. Then I will quickly, and gladly, answer his question.
The rules are what they are, my judgment is what it is, and if they're wondering how I'll handle any special situations they'll find out in about two minutes once the game gets started!
Before the game, If I see any lines incorrectly marked I will bring it to the attention of the coaches. Then we either fix it, if time allows and the equipment is there to do it right, or wipe out the line altogether if it can't be fixed. Either one of those will usually solve any problems with a small area like the batter's box.
I've had cases where the entire foul lines were marked wrong, either coming from the front corner of the plate, instead of the point, extending to the inside of the bags, instead of the outside, or just so darn crooked they look like a West Virginia highway! If there is no time to re-do them, I'll tell the coaches that I'm ignoring the marked lines and using my own judgment to line up fair/foul balls.
My pre-game plate conferences are pretty much by-the-book: An introduction of myself and my partner to the coaches; Give me your line-ups and we'll review them real quick before they become "official"; A quick rundown of the ground rules; A reminder to the coaches about their players being properly equipped; Any questions?; Have a good game!
I don't go into any "what-ifs", mini-rule clinics, explanations on my judgment or special warnings before the game. The exception might be if, at the end of the meeting, a coach has a question about a certain rule or situation. Then I will quickly, and gladly, answer his question.
The rules are what they are, my judgment is what it is, and if they're wondering how I'll handle any special situations they'll find out in about two minutes once the game gets started!
default
Member
These clips come from the National Federation of State High School Associations. 70%, I take that back maybe 60% of high school teams have true pitchers. So a girl is trying hard to represent her community and may not be a summer team pitcher or even a pitcher at all for that fact and we will have 90% umpires behind the fence giving her crap. I really think this is totally unnecessary.
Until your kid is actually the closest defensive player from a batter taking a true shot from a bat that is the highest tech out there some thought really needs to be put into this. I really think we need to re-think about advantages. Otherwise, every team out there is looking for a new pitcher.
Until your kid is actually the closest defensive player from a batter taking a true shot from a bat that is the highest tech out there some thought really needs to be put into this. I really think we need to re-think about advantages. Otherwise, every team out there is looking for a new pitcher.
default
Member
Thank you CincyStorm for telling it like it is!
IMO, any high school pitcher - or ANY position for that matter - that is not playing by the rules is illegal. PERIOD. So we're saying since pitching is so difficult to learn, let's just bend the rules a little here and there. Well don't stop there! Let's make it 5 balls for a walk. C'mon! this is HIGH SCHOOL, not 5th grade!
If anyone is at fault here, it's "coaches" who don't know the rules and/or teach poor pitching mechanics. Umpires then compound the problem by not calling the illegal pitch. Maybe IF the umpires would have started calling the illegal pitches back in 5th grade, the pitchers and coaches would have a benchmark of what correct pitching looks like.
Since when is leaping illegal? Why wouldn't you want your pitcher to leap - clear to the edge of the circle if possible? Leap as far as you want! JUST be sure the drag foot doesn't leave the ground. LEGAL.
I don't think I've ever seen a pitcher "crow-hop" - which is actually a momentum building throwing technique for outfielders. However, probably 50% of pitchers you typically see in summer in Ohio "replant" before release. Who teaches this stuff? The little sideways jump, landing on the drag foot just before the stride foot (replant), then a hip turn and pseudo-drag to release the ball. Actually a lot of pitchers combine this replant with no drag - which is doubly illegal. Look for the hole - there's a LOT of them. Pitchers "replant" (bad), outfielders "crow-hop" (good).
Arm circle, if taught properly WILL release the ball "in the slot" by the hip. Watch any good pitcher throw movement pitches - they get the hip out of the way, nice loose and relaxed arm using wrist snap to spin the ball, NOT a side-arm with tense, bent elbow away from the body.
Stepping "off the power line" slightly is sometimes necessary for good movement pitches, but pitchers who slide their foot to the edge of the rubber AND step sideways are most likely to be outside the lane. A pitcher has to be aware of where they are landing and compensate.
Difficult concepts - yes. But IMO dumbing down and relaxing the rules at the high school level only makes everyone playing sink to the level of the lowest skilled players. And THAT will do nothing but weaken the sport.
IMO, any high school pitcher - or ANY position for that matter - that is not playing by the rules is illegal. PERIOD. So we're saying since pitching is so difficult to learn, let's just bend the rules a little here and there. Well don't stop there! Let's make it 5 balls for a walk. C'mon! this is HIGH SCHOOL, not 5th grade!
If anyone is at fault here, it's "coaches" who don't know the rules and/or teach poor pitching mechanics. Umpires then compound the problem by not calling the illegal pitch. Maybe IF the umpires would have started calling the illegal pitches back in 5th grade, the pitchers and coaches would have a benchmark of what correct pitching looks like.
Since when is leaping illegal? Why wouldn't you want your pitcher to leap - clear to the edge of the circle if possible? Leap as far as you want! JUST be sure the drag foot doesn't leave the ground. LEGAL.
I don't think I've ever seen a pitcher "crow-hop" - which is actually a momentum building throwing technique for outfielders. However, probably 50% of pitchers you typically see in summer in Ohio "replant" before release. Who teaches this stuff? The little sideways jump, landing on the drag foot just before the stride foot (replant), then a hip turn and pseudo-drag to release the ball. Actually a lot of pitchers combine this replant with no drag - which is doubly illegal. Look for the hole - there's a LOT of them. Pitchers "replant" (bad), outfielders "crow-hop" (good).
Arm circle, if taught properly WILL release the ball "in the slot" by the hip. Watch any good pitcher throw movement pitches - they get the hip out of the way, nice loose and relaxed arm using wrist snap to spin the ball, NOT a side-arm with tense, bent elbow away from the body.
Stepping "off the power line" slightly is sometimes necessary for good movement pitches, but pitchers who slide their foot to the edge of the rubber AND step sideways are most likely to be outside the lane. A pitcher has to be aware of where they are landing and compensate.
Difficult concepts - yes. But IMO dumbing down and relaxing the rules at the high school level only makes everyone playing sink to the level of the lowest skilled players. And THAT will do nothing but weaken the sport.
default
Member
I can relate to you as our son was a pitcher in select, high school and college and we faced the hitters who used bats that were -5 and had bat exit speeds in the 113 MPH range. During his freshman year in college it went to -3 and made it safer from some points of view or an exit speed of 97 MPH. We always were concerned! The bat manufactures however sued the NCAA. You look it up however money drives our sport and technology sells and everyone is looking for the edge even to the fielding gloves.
Now ask your coach who allows or encourages your first and third baseman to play 15 feet from one of our hitters and why they play up so close and if they get hurt ask your self why. So we offer chest protectors and masks. We offer body armor to the hitters so the pitchers can not brush us off the plate even though we have a right to stand within the confines of the batters box legally.
There is a balance of technology versus common sense and the game evolves. Do we just go back to wooden bats? Do we outlaw the rise ball, change up or drop ball. Do we outlaw crowding the plate?
Each perspective as to pitcher or hitter looks for an advantage or to exploit the weakness of the other.
A pitcher from Italy during the ISF World Cup could not throw a ball to first base so everyone bunted to the pitcher and I mean everyone! She would field it and relay it to the third baseman otherwise she threw it out of the stadium?everyone bunted to the pitcher to exploit her weakness.
It, softball is a game played by kids and orchestrated by adults and adults do not like to loose to kids or other adults?.so who is to blame?
One batter in the box and nine people playing defense with two to three coaches looking for every perceived weakness to exploit and a game that allows for the defense to get you out 7 out of 10 at bats statistically and you think that is fair? NO that is softball and baseball and it is a game.
Listen to some of the parents in the stands and what they say from both sides and whose game is it?
When they all play by the same rules and let the athletes play by the same rules without the adult influences maybe the world will be a better place?isn?t that the game of life also?
I do not mean to offend anyone or hurt their feelings it is just my opinion?we teach to hit the ball hard and often as you are throwing an object at us that is moving and changing speed and direction?.we consider it a challenge and a game?it is softball and baseball and that is why we play it.
It is not as simple as pitcher, hitter or technology in my opinion.
Thanks
Howard
Now ask your coach who allows or encourages your first and third baseman to play 15 feet from one of our hitters and why they play up so close and if they get hurt ask your self why. So we offer chest protectors and masks. We offer body armor to the hitters so the pitchers can not brush us off the plate even though we have a right to stand within the confines of the batters box legally.
There is a balance of technology versus common sense and the game evolves. Do we just go back to wooden bats? Do we outlaw the rise ball, change up or drop ball. Do we outlaw crowding the plate?
Each perspective as to pitcher or hitter looks for an advantage or to exploit the weakness of the other.
A pitcher from Italy during the ISF World Cup could not throw a ball to first base so everyone bunted to the pitcher and I mean everyone! She would field it and relay it to the third baseman otherwise she threw it out of the stadium?everyone bunted to the pitcher to exploit her weakness.
It, softball is a game played by kids and orchestrated by adults and adults do not like to loose to kids or other adults?.so who is to blame?
One batter in the box and nine people playing defense with two to three coaches looking for every perceived weakness to exploit and a game that allows for the defense to get you out 7 out of 10 at bats statistically and you think that is fair? NO that is softball and baseball and it is a game.
Listen to some of the parents in the stands and what they say from both sides and whose game is it?
When they all play by the same rules and let the athletes play by the same rules without the adult influences maybe the world will be a better place?isn?t that the game of life also?
I do not mean to offend anyone or hurt their feelings it is just my opinion?we teach to hit the ball hard and often as you are throwing an object at us that is moving and changing speed and direction?.we consider it a challenge and a game?it is softball and baseball and that is why we play it.
It is not as simple as pitcher, hitter or technology in my opinion.
Thanks
Howard
Similar threads
- CZ_fastpitch_fan
- The Umpires Life and Rulings
Pitching and Pitchers Discussion
Illegal Pitches/Pitching
- ChixCoach
- Pitching, Hitting, Catching and Fielding
Pitching and Pitchers Discussion
NCAA Backpeddles on Illegal Pitches
Pitching and Pitchers Discussion
8 pitchers in two games - all called with illegal pitches
